-- Nathanael C. Nerode neroden@fastmail.fm ----- Original message ----- From: "Joerg Jaspert" <joerg@debian.org> To: nm-committee@nm.debian.org Cc: "Nathanael Nerode" <neroden@fastmail.fm> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 01:24:39 +0100 Subject: Debian New Maintainer Rejection [Nathanael Nerode] Hi I'm sorry to report that I've decided to reject the application of Nathanael Nerode. This is a strong rejection according to the guidelines outlined in [1]. [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-newmaint/2003/10/msg00001.html First let me make clear that I'm *not* rejecting him because "I don't like him" or something similar. I don't have enough to do with him to have a big bad feeling against him. So this is nothing personal, this is my opinion as one of Debians Account Managers, which I got after reading his report and all those mails individual Developers sent in to me, as well as looking for his activities on Debian lists/bugreports. More detailed reasoning: I do not believe Nathanael would fit well into Debian. While he has the technical skills, proven in the report his AM sent in, I do believe he lacks on the social site to live and work in such a large project like Debian is. Of course we do have lots of existing Developers with a similar problem, but that doesn't mean we should add more, instead we should address the existing problem. Looking at the areas Nathanael listed for his AM, most of them do not need an account. Lets look at some in more detail: - QA work. Here he files bugs, submits patches and asks for package removals. While this is something good and appreciated, none of this requires an account. Ok, sometimes an NMU may be easier if one doesn't have to ask a sponsor, but from what I can recall there hasn't been much happening on that front from him. (Yes, you can NMU/prepare them even without being a DD). - He mentioned occasional release management assistance. His AM asked Steve as release manager about this, his reply is attached below as [2]. - There is also "There is also "Help in tracking down bugs and determining solutions", "Miscellaneous cleanup work", ""Sanitizing" packages." and help on debian-legal. Having an account makes no difference for these. Nathanael also states that he wants the "membership and voting rights in a community I was already doing a lot for". This is the most valid reason for which I would give him an account, but did not happen to outweigh the negative amount I fear will happen. But splitting accounts up into multiple stages, like upload rights, voting rights, machine accounts is something we need to face in future, but this will take lots of time. Now, for the mails people sent in that I mentioned earlier: The first is from a Developer who did not want his name to show up: --8<------------------------schnipp------------------------->8--- I've noticed Nathanael Nerode's NM report. I'm a little uneasy about him, to be honest... My main issue has to be his record on d-legal. His social skills seem to be a little lacking, and that's something that worries me. just thought I'd let you know... I'd rather keep this private if possible... --8<------------------------schnapp------------------------->8--- Martin Wuertele, maxx, sent the following in: --8<------------------------schnipp------------------------->8--- Given his intolerant involvement in the firmware discussion and his query for a "Procedure for expelling developers for violating Social Contract?" I strongly oppose Nathanaels application. It is good if someone shows engagement and unerlines his arguments but if they have now tolerance towards other opinions and block every progress that does not fully meet their believe I don't think they help the project, free software or our users. --8<------------------------schnapp------------------------->8--- Anthony Towns sent one in in 2004 already, even before Nathanael applied. It was about two possible-NMs, thats why I deleted the one quote from the other: --8<------------------------schnipp------------------------->8--- While ttbomk neither have applied yet, I don't believe it's appropriate for new-maintainers to be placing conditions on their applications, nor in Debian's interests to accept such conditions. [a quote that only applies to the other NM, so deleted] I think Nathanael has demonstrated he doesn't have the temprement to work within Debian in a productive fashion. --8<------------------------schnapp------------------------->8--- Andreas Barth sent in the following statement: --8<------------------------schnipp------------------------->8--- the cited message, together with other mails make me wonder if Nathanael is really a positive factor to Debian currently. For some context, near to this mail he sent another with claiming different people break the social contract - see e.g. http://lists.debian.org/debian-kernel/2006/08/msg00055.html I think that Debian Developers should work together, and not try to force other Developers their opinion on. Of course, there might be situations where some force might be needed, and the constitution even says how this can happen, but I don't think the kernel firmware issue was in a state where even the developers all agreed how the situation should be handled (or even, how to read the DFSG there) - and I don't perceive the DFSG as a stick to beat other people with, but as a very important and helpful set of guidelines for our work. (Of course, everything would be different if there is a GR asking some people for a certain course of action, and people just ignore the GR - but this is not what happend here.) So, summary, I doubt Nathanael has the right approach to be part of a team (or community, if this word sounds better). It might be that he learns how to be more constructive later on (and on a strictly personal basis, I wish him much success there), but I doubt he has the social skills to become a Debian Developer now. ----- Forwarded message from Nathanael Nerode <neroden@drizzle.astro.cornell.edu> ----- From: Nathanael Nerode <neroden@drizzle.astro.cornell.edu> To: debian-project@lists.debian.org Subject: Procedure for expelling developers for violating Social Contract? Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 13:31:09 -0400 Message-ID: <20060803173109.GA5739@drizzle.astro.cornell.edu> Resent-Sender: debian-project-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 12:54:30 -0500 (CDT) Is there one? I think there needs to be. --8<------------------------schnapp------------------------->8--- A reply on -newmaint to the AM report contained: --8<------------------------schnipp------------------------->8--- > 2. Philosophy and Procedures > ---------------------------- > Nathanael has a broad understanding of Debian's philosophy and > procedures. Nathanael has in the past repeatedly shown very agressive behaviour towards Debian Developers on the lists, something which in my humble optinion is not in line with Debian's philosophy and procedures. Did you take this into account/consideration when evaluating his application? URL: http://lists.debian.org/debian-newmaint/2006/06/msg00024.html --8<------------------------schnapp------------------------->8--- His own AM once had the following (yes, in 2004 and people may change, just to be complete): --8<------------------------schnipp------------------------->8--- > My subscription seems to have been accidentally changed from > debian-devel to debian-nm-buildd-flamewars, is something wrong with > murphy? :-P Just killfile Nathanael Nerode and Goswin von Brederlow and everything will return to normal. URL: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/02/msg01173.html --8<------------------------schnapp------------------------->8--- Of course I wont hide positive statements, there just haven't been as many. One is from Josselin Mouette: --8<------------------------schnipp------------------------->8--- As some people are currently publicly questioning the qualities of Nathanael Nerode as a new maintainer, I feel obliged to reaffirm he is one of the kind we need in the Project. If it was only for the amount of time he spends finding ways - both social and technical - to keep key parts of the distribution DFSG-free, he deserves becoming a Debian developer. The fact he is spending time in open discussions on mailing lists, without restraining himself to political correctness, should be seen as a quality and not a flaw. (Well, with an exception for his tendency for breaking threads.) --8<------------------------schnapp------------------------->8--- and another from David Nusinow: --8<------------------------schnipp------------------------->8--- I know that Nathanael's application is fairly controversial in some ways, but he did help significantly with the work getting Xorg 6.8 ready for unstable. I found him surprisingly easy to work with during this period and we, as well as others, managed to get a lot done in that time. This point at least, should be seen as an unqualified positive on his record. - David Nusinow URL: http://lists.debian.org/debian-newmaint/2006/06/msg00025.html --8<------------------------schnapp------------------------->8--- Now, after all those statements people sent in, lets use google a bit. There is [3] and in the same timeframe you can find more, spread over various lists, from -devel to -project and -vote, like [4] and also [5] recently. [3] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/05/msg00031.html While the poster used some hard language in this post it shows where it comes from. [4] http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2004/03/msg00619.html [5] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2006/12/msg00783.html Nathanael: This reject is private (only you and the nm-committee can read it), we wont make it public - except you ask for it or do it yourself. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [2] Reply from Steve to Brian talking about Nathanaels involvment in release things > I'm Nathanael Nerode's AM, and he's expressed an interest in helping > with the release process as part of his contribution to Debian. I know > he's been quite active on debian-release recently--have you found his > involvement helpful and productive? Do you have any other comments to > make that would be relevant to his NM report? I wish that I could give you a ringing endorsement of Nathanael as a candidate DD, but I don't feel that I can. While it's true that he has been a help from time to time in the release team's work, I have also often seen him interact with others in a brusque, arrogant, or insulting fashion -- >From his attacks on the character of Anthony Towns (then RM) during the documentation vote debacle, to this thread <http://lists.debian.org/debian-release/2005/10/msg00046.html> in which he accuses various people of being derelict because he was not in the loop on a bug that the release team, the toolchain maintainers, the affected porters, and various upstream folk were well familiar with. It is this latter pattern of hostility that has left the most lasting impression on me and, I expect, on most people who encounter it; and I don't think this is a characteristic that's compatible with being a representative of the release team. This does seem to be less of an occurrence lately than in the past, but I don't know whether this represents a lasting change. Also, I would note that his participation in debian-release seems to have been focused on analysis of testing transitions and recommending policy to the release team. Being able to interpret britney output is a useful skill, but it's hardly the area that the release team is most in need of manpower for; and I'm certainly not looking for more people to set release policies for me... What would be much more helpful is to work with maintainers to resolve RC bugs, either by providing patches or by recommending package removals to the ftpmasters and/or QA team. I've seen a fair amount of work >From Nathanael in this last area, but I can recall precious little in the way of actual bugfixes I've seen him submit. As with most NMs (and DDs!), I would welcome seeing more involvement from him on that front. Feel free to share these comments with him if you think they're important/appropriate. Anyway, nothing I've said should be construed as an objection to his overall NM candidacy. On many levels he's certainly as qualified as a large number of existing developers, I just don't believe that from the standpoint of involvement in the project, participation in the debian-release list is much of a qualification. So I hope that he's involved (or gets involved!) in areas of the project where I haven't seen his activity. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- bye Joerg > commited with the quality of our system (and project), it is all very > connected: Freedom <-> Users <-> Quality <-> Transparency <-> Freedom. This looks like a consulting schema
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