Re: FYI: debian-legal is discussing the inclusion in the Debian archive of "erotic" interactive fiction depicting the sexual abuse of children
'lesleyb' <lesleyb@herlug.org.uk> writes:
> On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 05:39:33AM +0100, Bas Wijnen wrote:
>> > >> As far as I understand, we're all defining our position 2nd hand on
>> > >> Bas' analysis.
> Agreed.
>>
>> And given the responses, my analysis obviously needs some explanation.
>>
> Thanks.
>> This game is technically very well done. It is a visual novel, which
>> like a regular novel is intended to make the reader/player think about
>> some subjects. In this case the main subject is child abuse.
>>
>> Depending on player choices, you can see different sides of it. That
>> includes the side of the abuser. Contrary to what people seem to have
>> understood, playing this side does not make the player feel like this is
>> a good idea. In fact, it made me feel so bad with "myself", that I
>> stopped playing.
>>
> Everyone will have their own personal response to that role in the game.
>> There are (drawn) images of child abuse included in the game. IMO, it
>> would have been better without them, but I understand why the author
>> included them: she wanted to provoke the audience. That certainly
>> worked, but for an international group like Debian it goes further, as
>> these images are illegal in many places. Therefore I don't think there
>> is a question that if this game would enter Debian, those images will
>> not be a part of it. That means that if there was a fear that the game
>> would be used as "entertainment for pedophiles", it won't work. (And
>> even if it would, that might even decrease actual child abuse; see
>> below.)
>>
> I'm taking it you mean the images will be withdrawn from the package and
> whoever downloads it will have to get them from elsewhere but they will not
> be able to download them within the package. Will the package contain any
> information about that or will it simply contain the ability to download
> individual requirements by posing the question to the player.
I would like to split the the game content into several packages:
- unteralterbach - game code and story text
- unteralterbach-music - music and soundtrack
- unteralterbach-data-nosex - graphics and sound for non-sex scenes
- unteralterbach-data-sex - graphics and sound for sex scenes
I would then ask upstream to host the unteralterbach-data-sex package
and make unteralterbach depend on unteralterbach-data-nosex, recommend
unteralterbach-music and suggest unteralterbach-data-sex.
For a similar split, see fortunes and openarena packaging – currently,
both fortunes-es and fortunes-es-off exist in Debian, similarly there
are openarena-081-players and openarena-081-players-mature.
The description of the unteralterbach package would explain that due to
legal circumstances in several jurisdictions Debian does not distribute
the unteralterbach-data-sex package and tell the user to get additional
content from upstream if (and only if) they are sure that posession of
images of fictional sexual abuse is legal in their jurisdiction.
Depending on how hard it is to split the non-abuse sex scenes out of the
upstream acrhive and on Debian's stance on sexual content in general,
one could also include the adult sex scenes in the data package hosted
by Debian (which obviously could not have the “-nosex” suffix then).
For prior art, see the package description of libdvdread4, which says:
> libdvdread probes for libdvdcss at runtime and if found, will use it
> to decrypt sections of the DVD as necessary. libdvdcss needs to be
> installed from third-party repositories (see README.css), it's not
> included in Debian.
OpenTTD says something similar about non-distributable game data:
> OpenTTD is playable with the free graphics files from the
> openttd-opengfx package and optional sound files from the
> openttd-opensfx package (which is in non-free). Alternatively,
> OpenTTD can use the graphics files from the original Transport Tycoon
> Deluxe game (See README.Debian on how to set this up).
I think it would be very important to point out the differences between
upstream content at <http://unteralterbach.net> and the Debian package
to prevent overeager actors from assuming the package contains illegal
content – as the discussion has shown, people are unlikely to evaluate
the game properly before condemning it.
I also want to prevent the case of someone liking the game and then
referring friends to the upstream page for the Windows or OS X version,
unaware that it may contain content illegal in his or her jurisdiction.
> Do you think the images are purely an artistic rendition or have they been
> processed from real images? (I don't want to download the game to
> check it myself.)
Weird question. I do not have a comprehensive library of sexual abuse
imagery to check against – and I have a suspicion that anyone in a
position to check would is not very likely to admit to that.
If you are asking if the in-game images are photographs processed using
some image filters – no, they are certainly not. They are comic style
renditions, similar to the illustrations on the upstream web page.
> I think they're illegal in the UK regardless.
Due to the concerns that have been voiced, it may prove useful to the
games team to compile a list of jurisdictions where sexual content
(including, but not limited to showing sexual abuse) presents legal
difficulties. Miriam's example of “LGBT content banned in Russia” quite
easily extends to other jurisdictions – the UK, AFAIK, bans “extreme
pornography” between consenting adults based on the acts depicted.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_pornography>
> <snip>
>> On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 05:39:14PM +0100, Mateusz Jończyk wrote:
>> > A sane person tries to judge morally their actions, which often
>> > includes predicting their consequences. It has been mentioned here
>> > already and I find it likely that the game may trigger some people
>> > sick of paedophilia and more harm may be done.
>>
>> I wrote that. However, I was corrected:
>> http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1999-effects-of-pornography.html
>> While not specifically about child abuse, it shows that if (regular)
>> porn is more easily available, there is a lower rate of sexual crimes
>> such as rape.
>>
>> From this we cannot conclude that having such games would lower the rate
>> of child abuse, but it is certainly possible. It is very unlikely that
>> it will increase it.
> I haven't read that paper to determine how they built their data from what
> sample sets they used but I'd like to know if the experiment has been repeated
> elsewhere and what the results were for those trials. Results may be
> completely different in different parts of the world or using different samples
> in the same parts of the world.
I suggest you read the paper – it does indeed try to compare different
cultures and jurisdictions and references a lot of other literature.
>>
>> And since this was the only reason for me to say that this game
>> shouldn't be in Debian, I have changed my mind on that as well (provided
>> that the illegal images are removed, and ftpmasters would accept it).
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 07:40:22PM +0100, Tobias Hansen wrote:
>> > there is no Debian developer who is considering to
>> > package or sponsor the game. (Or is there?)
>>
>> Yes, there is. Nils has shown to be a well-mannered person, and I'm
>> happy to help him build a proper package. Once it's done, I have no
>> problem sponsoring it.
I am quite surprised, thank you! I will contact you again when upstream
releases source, which – if I am not mistaken – is on 2014-05-01. (The
reason for upstream to release source later than binaries is that the
author feared people looking at source would spoil the game for others.)
>> On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 10:05:15PM +0100, Daniel Pocock wrote:
>> > Many people wouldn't want to touch this with a ten foot pole. The
>> > consequences of even showing sympathy for this type of package could
>> > well have personal consequences for some people well into the future,
>>
>> This game does not make the player think that child abuse is acceptable.
>> Quite the contrary, it does an excellent job of making the player very
>> uncomfortable when they play the role of the abuser.
>>
> I feel you're saying the game could be using aversion therapy - see the film
> Clockwork Orange[1] for a cinematic comment on the effectiveness of that.
> That role made you feel bad - other people may react differently and those that
> are that way inclined may not like aversion therapy being used on them. The
> study you cited before was about allowing people to access pornography more
> easily - it wasn't about using aversion therapy to help people feel bad about
> watching pornography so I'm ambivalent about it's application here.
While not a medical professional, I do not think this is a therapeutic
game. Many people I know did not react as negatively to the writing or
sex scenes as Bas did and continued playing despite the story.
If you are interested in therapeutic approaches, I suggest to read the
publications of the Institute of Sexology and Sexual Medicine of the
Charité university hospital Berlin. Charité promotes confidential
therapy for self-identified pedophiles to prevent child abuse.
<http://www.sexualmedizin.charite.de/en/>
Therapy: <https://www.dont-offend.org/>
> Paedophiles don't see themselves as bad or mad - they don't see anything wrong
> in being sexually attracted to minors or having sex with children - they think
> the rest of the world just doesn't understand it. They may well not/will not
> find that role as disturbing as you did.
This is most certainly wrong. Every single person I know who privately
admits to being aroused by comics or stories including sexual abuse has
explained to me that they would not have sex with a child. I think most
people, regardless of sexual orientation, do not want to have sex with a
person that they know is not mentally capable to consent.
Pedophilia does not necessarily imply child sexual abuse. I find it of
utmost importance to not stigmatize based on sexual orientation – not
only on diversity grounds, but also as it promotes a culture of fear
that quite likely sabotages public health efforts.
Conversely, child abuse does not imply a medical diagnosis of
pedophilia. Quote <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2205170>:
> "True" pedophiles should be identified by their preference for
> biological children. By using legal classifications, researchers may
> well be confusing two distinct types of offenders, child molesters and
> rapists, and confounding attempts to understand pedophilia.
I actually believe that one thing you said, that “the rest of the world
does not understand it” is quite true. Social norms often do not leave
room for sexual deviance and cultural taboos make it difficult to
discuss these issues in earnest even among well-meaning peers.
I furthermore believe that a discussion of pedophilia that has less to
do with the game is not quite on-topic for debian-games-devel. Since am
new here, I might be wrong. I hope you forgive me for straying so far.
> This argument may support the cited pornography study but only because
> the interested parties are interested and favourable to the
> topic. However if the role's implementation is some form of aversion
> therapy the end result may be the complete opposite.
“Bernd und das Rätsel um Unteralterbach” is not a therapy game. To
evaluate it like one is most likely not a worthwile endeavour and
probably irrelevant to the decision if the game should be accepted.
> My ambivalence to the application of the cited study to this game
> remains.
The paper's results are a general counterpoint to the common argument
that the availability of pornography is somehow worsening problems of
sexual violence. Sadly, most publications regarding that topic do rely
more on rhetoric and “common sense” arguments than on thorough reviews
of the available data. Think: If science would not upset how we see the
world, it would not be necessary to test any implausible hypothesis.
> Instinctively my reaction to including this game is a no and I'm
> exhausted trying to think it through to a yes.
> Obviously, with such a contentious subject, it's going to push people's
> boundaries. As far as I understand it has some technical merit as a game which
> remains without the contentious and probably internationally illegal matter
> included. I have no idea what artistic merit it has other than it pushes
> people's boundaries on a contentious issue.
If you do not want to play the game, maybe listening to the soundtrack
may tell you something about the artistic merit of the game. I find it
surprisingly diverse: <http://unteralterbach.net/#soundtrack>
--
Nils Dagsson Moskopp // erlehmann
<http://dieweltistgarnichtso.net>
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