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Re: FYI: debian-legal is discussing the inclusion in the Debian archive of "erotic" interactive fiction depicting the sexual abuse of children

> >> As far as I understand, we're all defining our position 2nd hand on
> >> Bas' analysis.

And given the responses, my analysis obviously needs some explanation.

This game is technically very well done.  It is a visual novel, which
like a regular novel is intended to make the reader/player think about
some subjects.  In this case the main subject is child abuse.

Depending on player choices, you can see different sides of it.  That
includes the side of the abuser.  Contrary to what people seem to have
understood, playing this side does not make the player feel like this is
a good idea.  In fact, it made me feel so bad with "myself", that I
stopped playing.

There are (drawn) images of child abuse included in the game.  IMO, it
would have been better without them, but I understand why the author
included them: she wanted to provoke the audience.  That certainly
worked, but for an international group like Debian it goes further, as
these images are illegal in many places.  Therefore I don't think there
is a question that if this game would enter Debian, those images will
not be a part of it.  That means that if there was a fear that the game
would be used as "entertainment for pedophiles", it won't work.  (And
even if it would, that might even decrease actual child abuse; see

There are also a few images of sex with adults.  I'm not sure what
Debian's viewpoint is on those (I think they are also illegal in some
countries, I recall a discussion about the "hotbabe" cpu temperature
monitor), but removing them as well wouldn't significantly change the
game, so for this discussion that isn't relevant either.

On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 05:39:14PM +0100, Mateusz Jończyk wrote:
> A sane person tries to judge morally their actions, which often
> includes predicting their consequences. It has been mentioned here
> already and I find it likely that the game may trigger some people
> sick of paedophilia and more harm may be done.

I wrote that.  However, I was corrected:
While not specifically about child abuse, it shows that if (regular)
porn is more easily available, there is a lower rate of sexual crimes
such as rape.

From this we cannot conclude that having such games would lower the rate
of child abuse, but it is certainly possible.  It is very unlikely that
it will increase it.

And since this was the only reason for me to say that this game
shouldn't be in Debian, I have changed my mind on that as well (provided
that the illegal images are removed, and ftpmasters would accept it).

On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 07:40:22PM +0100, Tobias Hansen wrote:
> there is no Debian developer who is considering to
> package or sponsor the game. (Or is there?)

Yes, there is.  Nils has shown to be a well-mannered person, and I'm
happy to help him build a proper package.  Once it's done, I have no
problem sponsoring it.

On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 10:05:15PM +0100, Daniel Pocock wrote:
> Many people wouldn't want to touch this with a ten foot pole.  The
> consequences of even showing sympathy for this type of package could
> well have personal consequences for some people well into the future,

This game does not make the player think that child abuse is acceptable.
Quite the contrary, it does an excellent job of making the player very
uncomfortable when they play the role of the abuser.

While you are right that saying anything about the subject will cause
some people to be angry, I think that is a very bad motivation for not
saying anything.

> > This is a game where you play a paedophile. The aim is to rape local
> > little girls, whilst evading the authorities. Success is rewarded with
> > graphic scenes of sex with children, failure with being thrown in
> > prison.

No, this description has nothing to do with this game.

> > The sex content is only optional in the sense that you can out
> > yourself to the authorities and get thrown in jail rather than
> > continue with the actual game content.

No; apart from the adult sex scenes, you do not see any sex until you
select that you are mentally ill and want to see it.  Also, even with
all sex enabled, most of the game consists of reading text while looking
at regular town scenes with some people pasted on top.

It is a lot more like a regular novel than some people seem to think.

> It was already suggested that because most sexual content is illegal in
> several countries, it would not be included in a game package acceptable
> for Debian. To me, this means that any outrage about graphic depictions
> of sexual abuse is misplaced here.


> I think that the game is a decent game without *any* sex scenes. If I
> understood Bas' review of the game, what disturbed him most was the
> writing, not the sex scenes – so we seem to agree on that effect.


> Regardless of the outcome of this discussion, I find it quite annoying
> that people seem to long for a sympathetic protagonist and get mad when
> a game provides something that unsettles them. It seems there is a wide
> range of game-space that cannot ever be explored if people insist that
> games must be shallow and fun to be ever allowed.

Haha, indeed!  I personally like one-dimensional heroic protagonists,
but I'm entirely with you that there should be other options available.


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