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Re: Re: FYI: debian-legal is discussing the inclusion in the Debian archive of "erotic" interactive fiction depicting the sexual abuse of children

Jo Shields <directhex@apebox.org> writes:

>> I honestly believe that almost none of those of us discusing the game
>> has even tried it (I haven't at least) and I don't think anyone who
>> hasn't even tested it can have a solid opinion. As far as I
>> understand, we're all defining our position 2nd hand on Bas' analysis.
> Let's be very, very, very clear then.
> This is a game where you play a paedophile. The aim is to rape local
> little girls, whilst evading the authorities. Success is rewarded with
> graphic scenes of sex with children, failure with being thrown in
> prison.

I think you get the prison ending if a) you botch a dialogue where
someone suspects you of a crime you actually have not done or b) the
protagonist has sex with a person that does not consent. I know that
children are not legally able to consent. I also think it is wrong to
enter sexual relationships when there is a strong imbalance of power.

However, I think that it is quite consistent that the game distinguishes
between statutory rape and rape defined by the victim not consenting. I
find it wrong, for example, to have an age of consent of 18 and would
certainly not consider it rape, say, a 30-year old and a 17-year old to
have sex if both parties are consenting purely on age. I do think the
pedophile story path is designed to show how an abuser might think.

> The sex content is only optional in the sense that you can out
> yourself to the authorities and get thrown in jail rather than
> continue with the actual game content. Where "game content" consists
> of a few hundred drawn images of graphic sex acts with children. The
> script "unrpa.py" can be used to extract all the assets from the .rpa
> files in the upstream-distributed game.

So a game that is being advertised as an erotic visual novel contains
sex scenes for every female character – having played quite some visual
novels with sex scenes, this is actually a pretty common occurence. What
is not a common occurence is that sex scenes are of sexual abuse. To me
this is a difference of degree, but I do know quite well why others see
a moral transgression.

It was already suggested that because most sexual content is illegal in
several countries, it would not be included in a game package acceptable
for Debian. To me, this means that any outrage about graphic depictions
of sexual abuse is misplaced here. Note that to show abuse, you have to
knowingly enable the option. The author was careful here – her choice
allows an easy separation of the sexual abuse imagery and the story.

I think that the game is a decent game without *any* sex scenes. If I
understood Bas' review of the game, what disturbed him most was the
writing, not the sex scenes – so we seem to agree on that effect.

To reiterate: Assume you remove all the sex scenes - what is wrong with
Unteralterbach then, legally and morally? Why should it not be packaged?

> We're not talking about some great moral position on artistic integrity
> here. There are interesting visual novels made with Ren'Py worth
> considering for Debian. But I don't think, on any sane planet, Hero
> Paedo Fucks Kids In German is a game we want in the archive.

A major point of the game is that whatever choice you make, the
protagonist is neither a hero nor a sympathetic character. I think you
can play the whole game without triggering any sex scene and the player
character is still a xenophobic socially awkward self-centered asshole.

The protagonist is only a hero if you actively choose to ignore all the
obvious signs of his descent into madness, the most obvious one being
the thought that the demons are out to get him, the *only* sane person.

Regardless of the outcome of this discussion, I find it quite annoying
that people seem to long for a sympathetic protagonist and get mad when
a game provides something that unsettles them. It seems there is a wide
range of game-space that cannot ever be explored if people insist that
games must be shallow and fun to be ever allowed.

> *Seriously* how is it possible that this bullshit has taken up as much
> time as it already has?

It seems to me that people seem to want to discuss it. Being new to
Debian, I find it positively suprising that this discussion did not
decay into an orgy of shitposting and ad hominem attacks (yet).

Nils Dagsson Moskopp // erlehmann

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