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Re: D-I Manual - please update translations (update)

On Saturday 22 July 2006 11:17, Jens Seidel wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 22, 2006 at 01:08:56AM +0200, Frans Pop wrote:
> > Note that translations that are not sufficiently up-to-date will be
> > excluded from the release.
> Great! It's really nice that you want as usual to drop all hard work
> done by translators. Also as usual you do not even explain why.
> But you're right, you're the release manager and can do whatever you
> want, right!!?

I feel this whole mail is a ridiculous over-exaggeration triggered by a 
different discussion that is currently going on on the debian-boot list, 
but I will answer it anyway.

> Once this is established for a beta release it will also apply to the
> final version.

In principle yes, but on the other hand I will, as a responsible release 
manager who cares about translations, allow a lot more time for updates 
and thus a longer freeze period.

> What reason could exist for this?
> * Releasing a version which is not fully translated and is XML-based
>   would contain old information, I really understand this.

The current missing file for some XML-based translations makes that 
translation unbuildable.
There have been some important changes in partitioning and preseeding 
since the last release. I _do_ feel that doing an official release where 
translations contain outdated information is a disservice to users.

One of the main reasons to be a bit more strict for intermediate releases 
is to avoid a huge pile up of translation updates for the final release, 
so IMO this policy increases the chance that translations will be 
up-to-date at the time of the final release.

Note that I did not list pt and it as "may be excluded" even though they 
have one untranslated document (the partman-crypto that was recently 

> * Releasing a PO file based translation with a single English sentence
>   in it is not the right thing for Debian users. Instead they should
>   refer to the English version (because they maybe have no way to
>   obtain the inofficial translation from Alioth). Who cares whether
>   they are able to understand English?

I would hope that the translators do...

> * Most probably the current document is nearly impossible to
>   understand if there are one or two untranslated strings in it. So I
>   suggest to drop the English version as well. Not everyone is able to
>   process in memory/brain such a huge document, which one only
>   understood if it completely parsed.

We all know that the manual can be improved. If someone does not 
understand what a part of a manual is about, they are free to ask (as 
several people have done in the past; and they've even received answers).

A translator is even free to not translate that part. If someone does 
decide to do that, I would suggest to discuss that with me so I can take 
it into account when writing these updates.
For PO based translations the correct way to "not translate" a particular 
part of the manual is to copy the msgid to the msgstr. If you don't then 
I cannot distinguish between "outdated" and "not translated on purpose".

> * We don't need any feedback for translations. Let's hide these so that
>   nobody (except the original translator) is able to improve it.

If you want feedback, then you can get it based on the Alioth website as 
well as the released packages.

I feel that users have a right to expect a released translation to contain 
the same information as the original and I feel that is more important 
than this point.

> * There is no need to test the disk requirements of all translations!??

No, there is not.

> Mhm, German is missing again ...

That is because German is fully up to date. I do realize now that there is 
a discrepancy between the way I listed the XML-based translations and the 
PO-based translations. Sorry for that.

> Please consider also the case the you're not able to complete the
> manual before the final release because of personal reasons such as
> illness.
> Clytie, how would you feel to miss your aim to support Vietnames again
> in such a case?

That is cheap.

If there are personal reasons why a translation cannot be completed, the 
translator is of course free to reply to my "call for update 
translations" and discuss the situation.

> > Note that excluded translations will still be available from alioth
> > and can be included again for the next release.
> But they will only included again for the next release only if they are
> fully translated, right?

Yes. Or at least 100% up-to-date.

> PS: Frans, just in case you want to revoke another users SVN access: My
> account is jseidel-guest.

Why should I want to do that?

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