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Re: Long term progress, not perfection

--- Grant Bowman <grantbow@grantbow.com> wrote:
> Wolfgang,


I dont know If I should speak on this issue or not
considering I'v been silent on the list since more 
then one and a half year. I belive there are more 
"Hurd enthusiasts" like me who ar "not happy" and 

I joined the hurd mailing lists and development in 
early 1998. My excitement and enthusiasm was shaken
on more than one issue.

Apart from Philips CD's there has been little effort 
from anyone else part to do anything on 

I dont want whine but The system on which I "wanted"
to develope was more unstable then useable.It has
stablised since but it was/is really hard to "pull
developers" from GNU/Linux or *BSD on a system 
like "The Hurd" instead I myself was distracted by 
*/BSD developer "friends" to join/help them in there 

Trust me and Belive me If we want to have "The Hurd"
we have to attract developers/students (including me)
who already work on *NIX and write *better* manuals
and work towards atleast for now, "A Useable System"
Rather then "Long term progress".

PS: Not a Troll.
Pankaj Kaushal
"Trompe Le Monde" 

> I respect your unhappiness with the status quo, I am
> sure you have
> plenty of reasons to be angry.  I am sure I share
> some of your concerns.
> However I feel this is the wrong approach.
> I've sent this to the debian-hurd list only for now,
> where it belongs
> until the points are more clearly defined for
> presenting to others IMAO.
> * Wolfgang Jährling <wolfgang@pro-linux.de> [020517
> 21:18]:
> > Adam Heath <doogie@debian.org> wrote:
> > > hurd does not exist alone in the universe, it
> exists alongside debian.
> > 
> > True. But for most people in Debian, the Hurd
> doesn't exist at all and
> > they "don't feel like caring about the Hurd". That
> is not only my
> > subjective impression, but also what Debian
> developers said in the past
> > (and some did behave accordingly). I would love to
> see the Hurd people
> > and Debian people cooperate, but like Jeroen (and
> others as well), I
> > have given up any hope and don't think that Debian
> will ever change in
> > the necessary ways, as we were even told by people
> that they are
> > unwilling to understand the Hurd-related issues.
> This sets up animosity between "people"s without
> constructive feedback.
> I feel comments like this hurt the efforts of those
> Hurd people who DO
> care to continue forward.  You and Jeroen, while
> certainly key
> developers and while you may be expressing common
> feelings, "and others"
> seems to speak for me, and I do not share your
> tactics.
> General accusations and giving up hope don't change
> things.
> What Debian ways are necessary to change?
> > Putting people like Jeroen who complain about
> these things in your
> > killfile won't help, and even indicates that what
> I wrote above is true:
> > Debian people prefer to ignore these issues. Or do
> you think there are
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^  us vs. them
> > no problems at all and we are just whining? I can
> assure you that this
> > is not the case. And while I understand that
> Debian has enough problems
> > on its own, I think that something needs to be
> done with respect to the
> > Hurd port, and I feel that this would be in the
> interest of everyone
> > involved.
> "Something needs to be done" - what?
> > BTW, I planned to become a Debian developer a
> while ago, but for reasons
> > similar to Jeroens, I have changed my opinion on
> that. I hope that
> > others can keep their optimism longer than we
> could and will actually be
> > able to improve Debian, but I doubt it. I rather
> expect that the Debian
> > GNU/*BSD people will feel similar like most of us
> do right now. I hope
> > that I'm wrong. :-/
> Now you are speaking for even more people to try to
> justify your own
> feelings.  Not helpful to those who will continue
> forward.
> > Thanks for listening to me.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > GNU/Wolfgang
> > 
> > -- 
> > Wolfgang Jährling  <wolfgang@pro-linux.de>  \\ 
> http://stdio.cjb.net/
> > Debian GNU/Hurd user && Debian GNU/Linux user \\ 
> http://www.gnu.org/
> > The Hurd Hacking Guide:
> http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hacking-guide/
> > ["We're way ahead of you here. The Hurd has always
> been on the    ]
> > [ cutting edge of not being good for anything." --
> Roland McGrath ]
> If you want to confront people who you know are
> already hostile directly
> with unspecific arguments you should not expect
> wonderful results.
> You and Jeroen seem to have put a time frame to your
> expectations.  Why?
> This port has been a long term game.  As the
> software stabilizes the
> code will speak for itself.  Organizational change
> of any kind takes
> longer.  An organization of technical people -
> longer still.  A
> VOLUNTEER organization - longer still.  What do you
> really expect and why?
> -- 
> -- Grant Bowman                               
> <grantbow@grantbow.com>

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