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Re: where do NEW packages go?

On Sat, 18 May 2002, Manoj Srivastava wrote:

>  Philip> Not as pointless as people may think.  Debian is being challenged to
>  Philip> examine its culture and this is never a comfortable process.
> 	Really? I would think that this is far less a cry to examine
>  one culture than a bunch os people who do not try to understand how a
>  complex social system works, but come in and try to impose their own
>  half naked schemes of how things ought to work, and result in mostly
>  disruption and chaos.
A change of culture does cause disruption and chaos at times.  This
includes people becoming upset.

> 	Sonething the size of Debian requires more than the ability to
>  yell loudly, it requires the ability to work with a large group of
>  people, and to understand how consensus is derined, and how work gets
>  done.

Of course it needs more than people shouting, but often the loud
complaints start things moving.
>  Philip> All organisations, including Debian, have a culture with
>  Philip> certain values and assumptions which its members are hardly
>  Philip> aware of.  These assumptions are built into manuals and
>  Philip> procedures, written and unwritten.
>  Philip> The way I see it is that Debian's culture developed though
>  Philip> being a distribution of GNU/Linux.
> 	And therein lies your flaw. Debian has evolved as a bunch of
>  people who are trying, through various and diverse reasons of their
>  own, to get the Best working set of UNIX like toolsets and
>  envoronments going. This is a fairly technically competent set of
>  individuals, and a fair number of them are keeping at the bleeding
>  edge of technology.

Omit your first sentence and I would agree with the addition of "Now
they are being invited to expand their vision of that technology."

>  Philip> It is now being challenged to see itself as a distributor of
>  Philip> free OS's, GNU/Linux, GNU/Hurd and the BSDs as equals.  This
>  Philip> requires a culture shift.
> 	This does not need a culture shift, any more than
>  incorporating python and ruby ntead of perl needs a culture
>  shift. What is needed is a planned change, and the ability to
>  recognize different parts that must be incorporated, and made to work
>  together -- blithering idiocies like "the FHS and linux are
>  braindead" have no part in this.

Think again forgetting the previous rash comments.  Incorporating the Hurd
into Debian requires a far greater mind-shift than moving to python and

>  Philip> IMHO, the target for the flames should be directed against
>  Philip> the current Debian GNU/Linux centred culture and not
>  Philip> "cabals".  After all the Debian's administrators reflect the
>  Philip> current culture or they would not be allowed to administer.
> 	Cabals? You know, the sheer clulessness of thise rambling
>  rants are enough to make most people ignore them. And like most
>  conspiracy theories, that only makes the lunatic fringe pop up and
>  yell out about validation of the conspiracy theory.

Misdirected anger, yes.  But there is an issue.
>  Philip> Don't look for a cabal when you are obstructed, the
>  Philip> organisation's culture is probably the problem.
> 	Or the sheer inability of a novice to comprehend the
>  methodology that has made the organization successful in the first
>  place.

Debian is successful, but it also needs to change.


  Philip Charles; 39a Paterson Street, Abbotsford, Dunedin, New Zealand
   +64 3 488 2818        Fax +64 3 488 2875        Mobile 025 267 9420
     philipc@copyleft.co.nz - preferred.          philipc@debian.org
     I sell GNU/Linux & GNU/Hurd CDs.   See http://www.copyleft.co.nz

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