Re: Re[2]: Anyone has read the FSF Usenix speech ?
--- dim <dimsmol@yahoo.com> wrote: > Hello Marcus!
>
> Tuesday, July 10, 2001, 5:15:30 AM, you wrote:
>
> MB> True, most people in GNU are focussing on
> GNU/Linux rather than the Hurd
> MB> right now. This makes perfectly sense, as Linux
> receives a lot of attention
> MB> from everywhere. It certainly will stay this
> way for the near future.
> MB> One reason why we don't get the attention we
> feel we deserve is certainly
> MB> that we don't do a good job at marketing the
> Hurd. But then, we also need more
> MB> documentation and more people trained at the
> Hurd's design before inviting people
> MB> to try out the Hurd and write applications for
> it at a large scale.
> I disagree about waiting more docs and Hurd-peoples
> before such
> inviting.
> Where from there will be such docs and peoples
> without inviting? ;)
>
We have to get developers, but if I am not wrong the
development model of the HURD (think before you do
it),
is not as attractive to hackers as it is the "Linux
way" (try and then debug).
> I think Hurd is a most probably future base of GNU.
> Maybe I'm wrong,
> but I want to believe it.
I think that Linux is getting more and more complex
and, because of its internal architecture, it will be
increasingly difficult to contribute to it.
On the other hand there are many companies are now
choosing Linux and developing it, which gives them a
huge advantage.
The future of the HURD, as I see is to be used in
massive parallel computing (where its internal
structure is an advantage) and embedded system (again,
its internal structure makes it more suitable).
> But how many developers knows about Hurd enough to
> get closer look
> at it and try realize their ideas under Hurd?
I agree, not many at all. It took me a bit of research
to actually get information related to it (apart from
"is a GNU kernel based on MACH").
> How they can to know more about it?
>
Maybe we can get a page on SourceForge or something
like that? I know it is not necessary, but it is a
place where developers look for stuff, and they are
the
ones we want to get to use the HURD. I know it is
redundant, it is only for the visibility of it.
> IMHO it's need to invite developers to try their
> power under Hurd.
> Where Hurd will mean "powerfull OS that is a most
> probably future base
> of GNU" - not least!
I do agree, but as we have a really big "competitor"
that shares most of the freedom (Linux), we need to
have something to offer that Linux hasn't got. We need
a stable system before we can be in the spotlight,
otherwise people will say "why go with the HURD? it
doesn't work well"
> If they will see their ideas can be realized with
> Hurd more smoothly,
> if they will see they can do more perfect and
> powerfull programs
> because of Hurd specifics, if they will like the
> taste of Hurd - then
> it will be more Hurd developers (not only Linux
> program porters, but
> DEVELOPERS) and then more docs, more ideas how to do
> Hurd better.
Again, we need it to work properly first. Once it is
working we can widely announce that it is easier to
develop for the HURD than for Linux and many people
will want to have a try :)
>
> Let's imagine I'm a developer. I have a great ideas
> about new programs
> and I want to realize it. If I don't know enough
> about Hurd I will do
> it for Linux only. But if I know there is a new
> great OS that have
> more features and that is a future more powerfull
> alternative to Linux
?Portability?
> I want to try it. I will produce new programs for
> Linux, but I will
> try to use features of Hurd. If I see power of Hurd,
> I think "What
> else can be done with it?". I want to use more
> features, I want to be
> near to future, I start thinking Hurd-way. And it
> means I will do more
> for Hurd because I interest it.
> Isn't it what we want from developers - future
> developers of Hurd?
>
Again, I think we need a fully working system (sorry
about insisting on it).
> But what we have now?
> Let's go to the www.debian.org home page. There is a
> writing about
> what is a Debian: "Debian uses the Linux kernel (the
> core of an
> operating system), but most of the basic OS tools
> come from the GNU
> project; hence the name GNU/Linux.". No word about
> Hurd!
Debian is (mainly) the stable distribution (OK, and
the
community). Once the HURD is part of the stable
distribution it will be there (and it will be a very
important advantage for Debian, having multiple
systems
with the same administration).
Don't we
> think Hurd is a future alternative of Linux or do we
> think Hurd is a
> accessory nonsense?
I think it will be an alternative, but not yet (yes, I
know that it is the other way, Linux was an
alternative
to HURD and was only chosen because of the HURD not
being ready).
> We see information about Hurd only in context of
> porting. Is it right
> way to get interest to it?
> Let's invite peoples to Hurd like DEVELOPERS!
> Many peoples is searching for a powerfull base to
> realize their ideas,
> but much less wants to port ideas of others.
>
Shouldn't we give them a complete environment? I know
that many people are happy with incomplete things (I
am
one of them), but most people like a comlete system
and, if possible, the same tools they are used to, so
I really see porting as very important too.
> You say "We don't do a good job at marketing the
> Hurd.". But IMHO it's
> need to do such job! It will be very nice to get
> more fresh blood to
> Hurd! :)
Agree to that. How do we do it?
>
> MB> In the meantime, let's do the right thing and
> bring the Hurd to the next
> MB> release. It will be worth it! And then we
> might even get our own press
> MB> release ;)
> It will be nice! :)
We will :)
> But IMHO it's need to invite developers as soon as
> it is possible.
> Press release is more usefull to get attention of
> sysadmins and users.
Well, we can always add mentions to the availability
of
things to do for developers and dome other "baits"
(one
of them, stupid as it may sound is the "ftp
filesystem", I've seen opinions of people wanting to
try it just because of that (an also "I'm waiting for
it to be stable").
>
> Thank You!
> --
> Best regards,
> dim
Sorry if I have been talking nonsens.
Best regards
Gabriel
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