Hello Ian, On 27/7/19 4:10 am, Iain Learmonth
wrote:
I've delayed this reply for a few days so that my initial disbelief and anger didn't taint my reply (;->) As a user of Debian and kernel ax25 continuously since 1994, to say your news shattered me is a gross understatement.Hi, I am a maintainer for the libax25 and ax25-apps packages, and these packages are not in great shape. These are userspace packages that compliment the AX.25 networking support in the Linux kernel. I would like to propose that we do not ship these packages, or otherwise use the kernel AX.25 support, in the next Debian release. I have various arm SBCs in addition to some early Raspberry Pi's - Odroid C1+, Odroid XU4 and Olimex A13. Both Odroids came with kernels that didn't have "ham radio" enabled, but after compiling a new kernel for the XU4 I was able to compile libax25, etc. The kernel for the Olimex had ham radio compiled as modules, but not for mkiss (go figure), so it's a distinct possibility that 64 bit SBC's also don't have "ham radio" enabled in some stock kernels, or, "ham radio" might be broken on those systems! I had an Odroid C2 (64 bit) but my recollections about ax25 for it are at best dim, and at worst, completely wrong so they're best kept to myself.What is beyond doubt is I compiled DireWolf on it but DireWolf wouldn't run, but that's not relevant to the ax25 question.Support for the AX.25 stack is currently not present on arm64 (#920651). I am not sure if this is due to it being broken there or it simply wasn't enabled. Regardless, it has been broken recently in ways that seriously affect its usability. There are just not enough people looking at it or taking care of it. Not an ideal situation. Is the real issue here a lack of motivation, or lack of understanding of the urgency to get things fixed, or an unwillingness by some to pass their "baby" to someone else who can act in a timely manner? I worked as and with volunteers for forty years so I have an understanding of how difficult (and frustrating) it can be at times to get things done. I'm not being critical, I'm just trying to get some understanding of what creates these problemsThe userspace packages also have long standing bugs (#605946) that have not been fixed by the upstream. In the last 2 releases of Debian we have shipped release candidate packages as no release has been made. But the bigger picture extends beyond users running a single application in a simple installation. What kernel ax25 offers is configuration flexibility to run multiple applications and have them cooperating seamlessly. Which alternative program(s) provide TCP/IP, ax25, Netrom, Rose and Flexnet routing and/or nodes, and 44net routing in a single package that also supports ax25ipd, multiple TNCs (hardware and/or software) that can be shared by all applications, pseudo ports, and with an interface standard that's freely available for use by anyone with the programming skills to write user software. And there is the convenience of tools like listen, mheard, call, all of which facilitate testing and fault finding when things "don't work", as well as providing day-to-day operating/maintenance convenience. Some alternative software provides some of those options, but not all. As a past owner/sysop of a BBS/Node with 6 radio ports spread over discrete TNCs and a Baycom USSC>4 card, two pseudo ports, various axudp links, Netrom circuits, Rose (FPAC) circuits and telnet access to the BBS, I believe I am qualified as a user to attest to the status and flexibility of Linux ax25 that couldn't be equaled then, or now.The following packages would be affected and I propose would be removed: libax25-dev ax25mail-utils ax25-tools ax25-apps The following packages would be affected and I propose should be built without support for kernel AX.25: xastir (checked, it's fine) uronode (checked, it's fine) aprsdigi (did not check if possible yet) fbb (did not check if possible yet) Kernel ax25 has been in Debian since the very early days of Linux, and although it would take a vivid imagination to expect the use of kernel ax25 to ever again return to what it got in the hey-day of packet radio, it's always remained in use, and it appears to be undergoing some renewed interest thanks to the humble Raspberry Pi drawing amateur operators back to digital modes, and some of the projects they use rely on kernel ax25.This is a change to something that's been around for a while, and it affects more than just my packages, so I'm bringing this to the mailing list for discussion. I have pretty much made up my mind that this is the right thing to do but I will listen to compelling counter-arguments. I know that the software has fallen into some state of disrepair but you don't scrap a car just because it needs some repairs, you fix it. Can not your decision to not include kernel ax25 in the next Debian release be delayed for one more release to give the amateur radio community a "last chance", as it were, to fix the issues that currently plague ax25, to bring it "up to speed". Terminating kernel ax25 without giving the community a chance to fix it seems undemocratic, but worse than that, removing it from the kernel will be a one way journey, with no chance of ever going back if the decision is found to be the wrong one. If jumping is inevitable, let's do it carefully. If my response seems a bit emotional, it is, but it's mostly for future generations of hams who will never get to experience a "complete" package that can do everything. I'm not a programmer, I don't have the skills, so I can't help fix software related issues, so, as a long-term user of Debian (since kernel 2.0.29) for amateur radio purposes I can only appeal to you to review your decision. RegardsThanks, Iain. Ray vk2tv |