On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:17:49AM +0200, Klaus Knopper wrote:
On Fri, Aug 06, 2010 at 08:00:37PM -0400, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:On Fri, Aug 06, 2010 at 02:01:07PM +0200, Rubén Romero y Cordero wrote: >Business as usual never was as things are always in constant change: >https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebianEdubuntu> >Additions/comments? I consider Ubuntu a user of Debian.I consider Skolelinux a user of Debian too, but one that is aiming (and quite close to becoming) an integral part of Debian itself - what we in Debian call a Debian Pure Blend.Sorry, I don't see that happen yet in the near future (Skolelinux aiming to be a pure Debian blend) considering all the changes and extras discussed on this list recently, including severe changes of LDAP schemata.
The issues you raise affects the *quality* of Skolelinux/Debian-edu as a Pure Debian Blend, but not the speed of getting there.
IMO it is in the spirit of Debian Policy to govern integrity of installed systems. Unfortunately some areas, databases like LDAP in particular, are not explicitly covered by Debian Policy. Skolelinux/Debian-edu heavily uses LDAP with the unfortunate result of a Pure yet unreliably upgradeable Blend :-(
In other words, I believe you are wrong here: Skolelinux/Debian-edu *is* close to becoming a Pure Debian Blend, even if not (yet) an ideal one.
As such I see no point in collaborative packaging work being conducted anywhere else than by simply packaging for Debian and then consuming from there.I DO see a point in cooperating between distributions.
Great. We agree here :-)Let me clarify: As you hint yourself (needing to emphasize _which_ part you comment on further up) my earlier statement contained several parts:
a) multiple distributions are derivatives from Debian b) only some derivatives actively seek full integration with Debian c) Skolelinux/Debian-edu is close to being fully integrated with Debian d) all of a), b) and c) are reasons to collaborate close to DebianIt seems we agree on a) and b), but not on c) (as discussed further above) and not on d) (as discussed below).
A vast amount of patches and fixes in genuine Debian packages comes from the Ubuntu community nowadays, btw. In fact, I consider Ubuntu one of the largest contributors to the Debian base, like it or not.
I like it a lot when users of Debian rise from mere consumers to also become contributors. Both end-users and derivative distributions.
Skolelinux has consistently contributed back throughout their lifetime, Ubuntu does it a lot (although less consistently), and Skolelinux-RLP which you are the leader of does it too. All those contributions are great for the ecosystem of Free Software, and particularly for the smaller ecosystem of Debian-based systems!
Let's coordinate all such contributions at Alioth, rather than at some other platform further away from Debian.
Ubuntu has its own, well-working framework for schools.
That may be true (although I have only heard rumors of such - only ever actually seen a smoothly running _desktop_ environment similar to plain Ubuntu).
If Ubuntu has software solutions which they have not contributed back to Debian, it either means that your argument of "vast amount of patches and fixes" contributed by Ubuntu do not include school-related parts, or that Debian for some reason refused to adopt such changes given to them.
Where in Debian BTS are the bugreports regarding improvements towards "well-working framework for schools" filed by Ubuntu developers?
If your interest in Ubuntu is not (only) working code, but (also) development services, then there are freeness concerns in using those rather than the ones at Alioth: Canonical offers a range of services inclusing translation and bug tracking, but those are not in the same spirit of freedoms as those at Alioth.
You may not care but other derivatives (and Debian itself) might, so the net result is the same: When using Ubuntu as development platform, the amount of possible contributors goes down due to political, technical and practical issues with not-entirely-free services offered there.
Therefore: Let's use Alioth.
I would like to adopt parts of it, in code or at least ideas,
We all want to reuse great code :-)
In return, I think that Ubuntu could make use of our extensions LINBO and italc-RLP; the alternative blind-friendly ADRIANE audio desktop, CATWeasel and CipUX set aside for a moment. Unfortunately, we have been unable to find a DM willing to create official Debian-Packages from our installation sources, so we are still making our own. Maybe there are volunteers from Ubuntu?
Would be great to have some Ubuntu guys help make the RLP code more generally usable. Especially if then contributed to Debian (i.e. not only to Ubuntu) so that all derivatives and Debian itself may benefit from those contributions.
- Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private
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