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Re: Doubts and question about the merging of LinEx in Debian Edu

El mié, 16-01-2008 a las 19:03 +0100, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)
> On Wednesday 16 January 2008, José L. Redrejo Rodríguez wrote:
> > And the final problem is the desktop: Our students and teachers have
> > been trained and using GNOME for the last 5 years, so we can not discuss
> > if GNOME is better or worse than KDE: It just something that can not be
> > changed and both desktops have to live together. 
> The above is quite understandable from a technical support standpoint, but 
> from a pedagogical perspective regarding computer-literacy this is IMHO 
> just plain wrong and counterproductive:
> Both KDE, and Gnome (and any other current desktop) is makes up a WIMP 
> interface. Given similar configuration (regarding menu structure and the 
> like) a computer literate end-user should have no real dificulty switching 
> between one and the other for everyday use.
> Yet practically speaking a lot of people currently do have problems. Mostly 
> because they only have experience with one desktop and thus have no 
> experiental basis to differentiatie between the semantically important 
> interface elements and the purely visual or spatial differences.
> By giving children (and teachers :) experience with multiple desktops 
> they'll quite naturally start to extrapolate which are the important 
> elements and patterns Thus yielding a more computer-literate person.

I fully agree with you if you're thinking of using the computers to
technical literacy, but, at least for us, the computers are in the
classrooms as a tool for teaching. In some degrees there is a computer
related subject, but they're there mostly to teach languages, maths,
history, geography, etc. A music or geography teacher doesn't need
(maybe doesn't have) to be a hacker. Really, when we're speaking from
thousands of teachers (civil servants they all), from different ages, we
can not through away the time spent in their training and the effort
many of them did to know how to copy a file, modify a menu, or use an
usb stick.

> > Happily, freedesktop.org initiative has made thing easier in this field,
> > but there still some configurations very kde-related in a Debian Edu
> > installation.
> Ideally we would make it easy for a school to give their students experience 
> with multiple desktops (and themes and widget styles) by providing similar 
> setups for multiple desktops.
> The hard part about that is deciding on how a desktop should be set up in 
> the first place. 
> Once you have a clear idea of "we want it this way, because of this reason" 
> implementing that vision in a particular desktop is a relatively minor 
> effort.
> The amount of desktop customization that debian-edu-config does is minimal 
> ATM, while my impression is that Linex has a put a fair amount of work in 
> that. 
> => I think documenting the linex vision, and consequently implementing it 
> for both KDE and Gnome (and maybe XFCE) is the way to go. That'll give us 
> one starting point from which to refine things.

We have put a lot of effort in the primary schools desktops, for the
secondary schools our desktop is (aesthetically) quite similar to
current Debian Edu desktop. Only using gdesklets (GNOME Karamba
equivalent) is an appreciable difference.

I also fully agree on trying to get the same appearance in both Desktops
(three with XFCE if someone wants to do the work), and I also like the
idea of including both Desktops in the DVD (maybe installing they all
could be a good idea), but at the end, one default destkop should start
everytime the user starts the computer and that's something we have to
be able to choose (in some way) with the installer.

> > After seing things like:
> First doing an svn export before grepping, and excluding README, changelog, 
> and translations cuts the below numbers seriously, though that still yields 
> a substantial amount of work:
> > ../src/debian-edu-install#  grep -r skole * |wc -l
> > 282
> grep -r --exclude=README* --exclude=changelog --exclude-dir=debian/po skole 
> * | wc -l 
> 60
> > ../src/debian-edu-install# grep -r "10\.0\." * |wc -l
> > 3
> same
> > ../src/debian-edu-install# grep -r "tjener" * |wc -l
> > 67
> 24
> > ../debian-edu-config# grep -r "10\.0\." * |wc -l
> > 100
> 49
> > ../src/debian-edu-config# grep -r "tjener" * |wc -l
> > 298
> 141
> > ../src/debian-edu-config# grep -r skole * |wc -l
> > 628
> 251

Great, I feel better now, it's still quite a lot, but not so much ;-)

> > Option c) seems the more elegant and flexible solution, from a technical
> > point of view and thinking of people around the world who will have
> > different names for the computers and different network ranges, but it's
> > also the hardest one. If this option is chosen a lot of work need to be
> > done.
> I think c) is definately the way to go.

I would like to know more opinions about it, and specially, volunteers
to implement it...

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