Le mardi 06 avril 2021 à 11:15:29-0700, Steve Langasek a écrit : > > Asking for de-escalation is not tone-policing. > > > Tone-policing is using the way some people tend to express their > > opinion (generally violently, out of reaction to an attack they suffered > > from) as a way to invalidate their opinion or criticize them. > > We disagree here about the definition. Ack. That being said, I tried to feed on adapted resources on the internet, so I think I'll stick to this one. > But the definition is not the point; the effect is the same: asking > "both sides" to "de-escalate" when one party has been subjected to an > existential attack by the other, prioritizes "civility" over equity. I understand your point which has been made to me a big number of times. This is a complexe ball of wool. To me, asking people to not go into fist fights when someone is telling shit is not prioritizing civility over equity, but rather trying to resort to appropriate methods we, as a civilization, defined as appropriate to handle uncivilized people without giving up to their crappy methods. Because one day, someone will deem me, or someone else uncivilized, and should I allow myself to punch any person I consider as uncivilized in the face, then this someone will probably feel legitimate to the same towards me. And in the end we will just have a big brawl of people convinced they are right and doing the good thing, and many black eyes. One broken nose later, you probably feel better, but the matter is still not solved, and uncivilized people not really dealt with. > > Asking everyone to try remaining civilized when they interact is not an > > attempt to invalidate what you could say or think, or to criticize you > > as a person especially since you're not specifically targeted. > > Transphobia by definition is not civilized and the rules of civilized > discourse do not apply when dealing with individuals who are external to > your civilization. (I take the concept to be more general than Debian, so my reply is more general too) No one, even the most uncivilized douche bags of them all, is not part of our civilization, if we would really like to call it that way. The mere principle of a civilization is that it can't be one if it ostracizes anyone, and that is why we look "weak" today to many supremacists because we just send uncivilized-non-recoverable persons to jail while they'd like to put a bullet in their heads. Of course in Debian, if they are Debian Members, getting rid of them by removing their member status is quite easy, and in some way, they won't be part of this micro-civiliszation we are, although as we saw with some Daniel, it does not mean end of troubles. > An individual whose very existence is being rejected by an > interlocutor has no moral obligation to respond in a "civilized" way > to the attacker, and any Code of Conduct which insists on civilized > discourse under these circumstances does harm to the oppressed. If the goal is to keep the civilization as functioning and working, I can't agree with that, as it's exactly when we accept to waive the rules we set that these rules lose their value and therefore the whole starts to fall/crumble. This is actually part of why I have the signature I have. Not because I'm perfect and abide by this all the time, but to not forget it. Without becoming Jesus and showing the second cheek, we have ways to handle douchebags, and resorting to these ways is the best mean we have to show them they can't win. Of course, these ways have to be adapted when the need arises. We have a strong need to feel safe. Especially oppressed minorities. And to fulfill this need as a community, we in Debian probably have way more work to handle smoothly and efficiently things going south. But I'm pretty convinced that trying to avoid fist fights is and always will be appropriate. Last, but not least, to any of those having signed the RMS letter, - and whose mailbox currently is just full of mails from self-entitled douchebags considering harrassment as an acceptable practice, and whose big ego will one day collide with earth when they realize that after having sent their shit, their life is still as void as it was before they did, - you have my full sympathy and support. An to these actual douchebags : I only feel sad for you. Bests, -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for principles than to live up to them.
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