Re: Technical committee acting in gross violation of the Debian constitution
Am Donnerstag, 27. November 2014, 14:28:01 schrieb Matthias Urlichs:
> Martin Steigerwald:
> > But I think for most of the people that dislike systemd this is the main
> > concern: systemd is a lot of system building blocks in *one* repository
> > and
> > *one* debian package and while they may be separatable they are not
> > separated.
> >
> > But well, its an upstream topic and I actually tried to bring this
> > upstream, but didn´t seem to be able to bring my point across
>
> What exactly _is_ the point? It's one git repository instead of five, but
> what (technical) problem would having five repos and five Debian source
> packages, instead of one, actually solve?
>
> IMHO: None at all. Instead it creates busy-work, and a testing headache
> because you can't depend on a definite version of $OTHER_BINARY any more.
That is *your* oppinion. And thats it. Others are *perfectly* entitled to have
*different* oppinions about this. And that…
> There are obviously social problems with merging systemd and udev into one
> repository, and with having systemd and logind (and/or a couple of other
> helpers) there. We're seeing them; it's one of the major complaints about
> systemd.
>
> But it's Upstream's decision to do that. Absent a reasonable technical
> argument, I can understand that Lennart&Co get extremely impatient with
> having to re-hash the same old non-argument for the umpteenth time, even
> if not everybody actually gives them flak about it.
… proves the point I was trying to make *exactly*:
As long as there is no willingness of upstream to actually deal with these
concerns at the level they are raised – which is beyond technical convenience
- and as long as those having those concerns do not find a different way to deal
with them as to express them without doing much more about them and as long
any of the both party have any energy to go on with this, it will go on like
this.
But it also proves that it makes no sense to even continue on this here now: I
made my point. Take it, or leave it. Be upset with it, or not. I made my point
and I stand by it.
If I created the same outcome, which is resistance in the case of systemd
upstream developers, again and again and again and again, I´d ask myself "What
is going on here?". If I created the same outcome in the way how I voice my
concerns, I´d ask myself the same. Which isn´t happening here at the moment.
On neither side.
I just wanted to raise this. Take it, or leave it. But if you continue
complaining about the outcome… the one and only place where I can change the
outcomes I see is myself. You can´t change me who simply messages this point,
I can´t change your or the way you write your mails. The ones who resist
systemd and the ones who resist systemd can´t change systemd upstream
developers. *** So for a change it is required that at one point one starts to
look within oneself for a change. ***
A first step would be to acknowledge for the different viewpoints. For the
systemd developers and supporters to acknowledge for the concerns *whether
they agree with them or not*. For the concerned ones to acknowledge for the
design and development decisions of systemd upstream *whether they agree with
them or not*.
I don´t see this happening so far. And this is why people bring this up again,
again, again and again.
As long as one oppinion is the right one, and the other is the wrong one, this
will continue. As soon as different viewpoints become just that – different
viewpoints – in the minds of the involved ones, a change can happen.
So the real question here is: How long will any of the involved ones continue
to create the same outcome over and over and over again? When is the first of
the involved human being in this conflict ready to try something different? When
are others willing to agree with trying something different?
Or when are enough involved beings at least willing to pause spending energy
on this any longer to let it rest for a while – and see whether this can
facilitate a change in viewpoints due to calming down.
--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7
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