Re: Being part of a community and behaving
2014-11-13 22:56 GMT+01:00 Patrick Ouellette <pouelle@debian.org>:
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 01:39:52PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> Patrick Ouellette <pouelle@debian.org> writes:
>>
>> > We do tell users of Debian what to do - that's part of the problem right
>> > now. We told the users they will switch init systems, and a large
>> > portion (or at least a vocal portion) don't want to.
>>
>> Well, no, we didn't. We said that there would be a different default,
>> which is not the same thing. The project hasn't made a decision about
>> switching, and also, at present, sysvinit is still fully supported (modulo
>> the normal pre-release bugs).
>>
>
> By making it the new default, and causing apt-get dist-upgrade to install
> systemd (which is what happened to one of my systems) in place of sysvinit
> we most certainly are. Did the system implode in a fiery pool - no, but I
> was forced to deal with the unexpected aftermath. There was some breakage,
> and some things did not work as expected. (Sure, people would say
> I shouldn't be following unstable or SID but then I wouldn't have development
> environments.)
When upgrading your OS, you should *always* expect that you might have
to learn things - systemd is just one detail, but a lot of other
applications have changes too which force people to re-learn things
they took for granted before. So nothing new here...
> By not having a meta-package "init-system" provided by an actual package,
> we are forcing anyone who upgrades to also change init systems unless they
> take special precautions to not do so.
Previously on Debian, you didn't have any choice in init-systems:
Sysvinit was the only option.
Now, we provide a "init" metapackage, which ensures an init system is
installed. We make systemd default here and switch older installations
over to it currently. If you want to stick with a different
initsystem, you have the *choice* to choose any other one the "init"
package depends on, and even pre-select it on upgrade.
This should pretty much make everyone happy, those who care about
which PID1 they are running, and those who don't.
> For the record, I really don't care about the init system per-say. I am
> more annoyed with the systemd insistence on logging to binary files than
> anything. Log files should be plain text.
Rsyslog is srill installed by default (and I guess that won't change
soon), so you now have even better textlogs.
The binary logs are great for quick searching (just run systemctl
status on a service) and provide some extra benefits for working with
logs (I, for example, love the ability to group entries by priority),
but that's not something someone is forced to work with.
Cheers,
Matthias
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