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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

On 02/11/2014 04:19 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> On 02/11/2014 05:27 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>> No, it's absolutely not. You can have the choice for the interior
>> design, the paint job, the radio, the type of engine and comfort
>> features, but you certainly cannot have the choice on internal
>> parts like the ignition system or starter motor.
>> Furthermore, if you do decide to replace these parts on your own,
>> you will end up losing your car manufacturer's warranty.
> The car analogy can only go so far... My point was saying that people do
> customize things, and do it. That's a way more the case with computers
> than with cars.

Again, you have to differentiate. People customize their cars, correct.

What they don't usually do is replacing core components like the
starter motor, engine control circuitry, carburetor (ok, some
do) and other parts usually opaque to the driver. And, when they
do - because some people are crazy enough to - you will lose
the warranty.

On the other side, to be able to get back to the analogy to
our discussion, when you buy your car, you get a limited
set of choices which usually don't allow to choose for core
components to be from a specific manufacturer. However, the
things that you can choose from are always covered by the
warranty and usually do not affect the overall generic
functionality of a car. Like choosing your favorite editor

> On 02/11/2014 05:27 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>> And since there are virtually no volunteers for OpenRC besides
>> you and the other two OpenRC maintainers, Roger and Benda, it
>> will be unsupported at some point when you guys step down.
> That's truth for every bit of Debian, however, package gets orphaned,
> adopted, etc. Please don't through this type of argument, especially
> when we have co-maintainers already.

Correct. However, there is a huge difference whether it affects
an essential package like your init daemon or your favorite
editor. If the latter is affected by an RC bug, Britney can
kick the package out of testing without any consequences
for the rest of the system and users.

When you have an RC bug in your init daemon and no maintainer
and no one knowledgeable enough to fix the problem you really
have a problem. Thus, this risk should be kept at a minimum
which is only guaranteed when you use a software which is widely
adopted in the community and has a large group of developers
behind and not just 6.

> On 02/11/2014 05:27 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>> I have seen you asking for help on OpenRC so many times during
>> these discussion, but I am yet to see people raise their hands
>> and say "Yes Thomas, I am going to help you!"
> Yet, it happened. Not in this list though...

How many people where there to actually start contributing now?

> On 02/11/2014 05:27 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>> All I read are statements from you like "Yes, it would work
>> in general if we had someone to implement it, I don't have
>> the time right now unfortunately."
> Please read the debian/changelog of OpenRC in Experimental, and measure
> the work that has been done so far. I don't think this counts for
> nothing, and I really see progress. Hurd & kFreeBSD support, and
> lsb2rcconf comes to mind. Plus this doesn't include all what has been
> done before the package entered Debian.

This progress is still not enough - by far - to catch up with systemd.

>> It's not *my* choice, systemd is the choice of the majority of the
>> Linux community. OpenRC and upstart are used in Gentoo and Ubuntu
>> only (ChromeOS doesn't really count in that context, it's a more
>> or less closed system by Google), while virtually every other
>> of the large distributions has adopted systemd.
>> Using something which is not widely adopted and has very few
>> supporters in the development community means that if any of the
>> OpenRC or Upstart people will decide to retire, these systems will
>> lose much more development manpower than systemd does.
> Please stop spreading useless FUD. I could do that saying: "what happens
> if both Keith and Lennart stop developing systemd", but you would
> rightly find it very silly, no?

It's not FUD, it's the truth when you compare the bare numbers:

> http://www.ohloh.net/p/openrc

Current Contributors: 17

> http://www.ohloh.net/p/systemd

Current Contributors: 164

I hope you agree that 164 is a larger number than 17 and that
a larger community makes it much more unlikely for a project
to be abandoned than a small number of contributors.

Furthermore, which was initiated by Lennart as well was mostly
left behind by him, yet the project is still very much

> http://www.ohloh.net/p/pulseaudio

Btw, the other guy you are talking about is called Kay Sievers, not
Keith Sievers :).

> Plus I'm replaceable, if others see enough interest in the package
> (which seems to be the case).

Define "enough"? When an init system is adopted mainly by one
distribution and has only a handful of developers I don't
consider the interest to be enough, sorry.

> If I'm not mistaking, there's already 6
> committers in the Git on Alioth. Hacking an init system is a lot of fun,
> and I think that's part of the reason why there's contributors. It is my
> hope that the OpenRC community continues its growth.

Which is still something I don't understand. Why exactly should we
wait for OpenRC when systemd is already there, has a huge community
and does everything we need?

Why should I rely on what your wishes for the future are while
I can already have everything today. That's why I came up with
the lottery analogy in the first place. I have to live my
life with the assumption that I am not going to win the lottery
tomorrow, not the other way around.

Why is it so difficult to just accept that the majority of the
Linux community has made the decision for systemd. Why not stop
here with OpenRC and call it day?

You cannot always win in life :).


 .''`.  John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
: :' :  Debian Developer - glaubitz@debian.org
`. `'   Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de
  `-    GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546  0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913

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