Re: Gentoo guys starting a fork of udev
On 11/15/2012 01:26 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> On Nov 14, 2012, at 5:05 PM, Roger Leigh <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 03:04:35PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>>> On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 09:49:07PM +0800, Patrick Lauer wrote:
>>>> But anyway, we're getting tired of their ADHD-driven changes just to
>>>> change things
>>> TBH, I'm getting tired of people who are constantly shooting against
>>> them because these people are unwilling to accept changes. We're not
>>> bringing Linux forward if we stick to 30-year-old concepts. systemd is a good
>>> design and most people actually agree otherwise it wouldn't become
>>> standard on so many distributions (except Ubuntu, but that's rather a
>>> political decision IMHO).
>> systemd does have some good design features. It also has some bad
>> ones. It's not as black and white as some people have claimed.
>> If you want a reliable system, you need a reliable PID 1. Putting
>> additional complexity into PID1 increases the likelihood that a
>> bug will bring down your *entire system*. PID 1 is a single point
>> of failure. It *must* be absolutely dependable and reliable.
>> Upstart is also AFAIK at fault here.
> Sticking to the same logic, we should pull out all functionality out of the Linux kernel and use a micro kernel.
> Modern computer systems are much more versatile and complex than they were at the time when System V Init was conceived.
> You need a certain complexity if you want a certain functionality. I don't want to reboot my computer when changing my network connection, add or remove new hardware like disks or input devices. And I don't want to mess around with configuration files when I want to redirect the audio output of VLC from the internal laptop speakers to an bluetooth or AirPlay.
> The reason why Linux has become so successful is because users don't have to mess with tools like isaconf and pnpdump anymore to configure their Soundblaster sound card or edit the interfaces or hosts file to change their IP address.
> I honestly think that people who are fighting modern software like systemd, pulse-audio or udev are simply fearing that their expertise in hacking configuration files in order to get things working are no longer needed anymore. They fear that the average joe can install and set up a Linux box without their help.
> When I started using Linux in 1998, I would have never thought that I'd be installing it onto my mother's laptop almost 15 years later as the sole operating system and she'd be happily using it with nearly zero support from my side. This would have never been possible without all these little modern helpers that we have nowadays.
> If some advanced users want to stick to the traditional Unix way, they're free to use distributions like Gentoo or use any of the BSDs. But I honestly ask them to stop spreading FUD about how software like systemd or Pulse-Audio is hurting Linux and free software, because Linux wouldn't be there where it is nowadays without these developments.
Roger talks about technical design and upstream author choices,
with some I believe very valid points, and you're talking about
features! This can't go anywhere.