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Re: Second call for votes for the debian project leader election 2007

On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 08:23:10 +0200 (CEST), Andreas Tille <tillea@rki.de> said: 

> On Fri, 30 Mar 2007, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 07:10:53 +0200 (CEST), Andreas Tille
>> <tillea@rki.de> said:
>>> On Thu, 29 Mar 2007, Manoj Srivastava wrote:

>> Sure, we have a problem.

> OK, so please take this honest.

        I don't think I have ever been dishonest about it. Amused,
 perhaps, dishonest, no.

>> Far too many people are using MUAs that seem incapable of following
>> standards. I fail to see what I can do to fix it, apart from

> But you didn't say *how*.

        How do you use the standards compliant mailer? Look to its
 documentation, I suppose.  Why do you expect me to be able to tell
 you how to use mailers out there?

> Even the hint to mailx you gave me in private mail did not work in
> every case.

        It was a hint. Evidently, some MTA in between helpfully
 mangled your mail.  Now, I am not a expert in all the different MUAs
 out there, nor do I have any desire to  become one.

> I have no idea whether mailx is standards compliant or not, but my
> attempts to use it failed while others were successful.

        Good for you. Every one should figure out whichever mailer
 they want to use.

>> There. Satisfied?

> No.

        Ah, well. At least I tried.

>> If you want to be pedantic about it, ballots need to be either:
>> a) Mail messages compliant with RFC 2015 (issued in 1996), and
>> updated by RFC 3156, or, if not using MIME,
>> b) An unmangled RFC 2440 complaint OpenPGP message as the body

> Well beeing pedantig means missing real live.

        If by real life you mean a life where people do not know how
 to send signed mail,  well, I suppose people need to learn how to
 send mail, really, in order to best survive in a distributed, mail
 based organization like debian.  And people should not expect to have
 their hands held while they learn how to send mail.

> What currently happens is another form of ignoring real live.  If it

        Yes, I have no desire to face the real life where my supposed
 peers can't send mail; at least, I have no desire to teach them how
 to send mail.

> is a known fact that people are happy using MUAs that do not fit a)
> and b) for every day work and do not face problems except when
> sending a ballot to vote I would regard it as practical inacceptable
> even if theoretical correct.  (This would be not the first case
> where theoretical correct thinks do not work perfectly in real
> live.)

        In order to vote, you need to send in a signed ballot. If your
 real life does not require you to send  cryptographically signed
 materiel, where the integrity of the signatures matter, then I
 suppose you can get away with using broken mailers. But Debian voting
 has always relied on signed ballots sent via mail. It so happens that
 the ballots have incidentally not contained accented characters so
 far -- but that was mere happenstance.

>> Well, sorry, but I do find that it, umm, tickles my funny bone to
>> see in LWN, no less, a tongue in cheek article about the difficulty
>> people are having just sending singed email.  I promisre to try to
>> be more sober in the future.

> I assume it is just me that I'm unable to explain you the point of
> my previous mails.  You are obviousely missing it continuosely.  So
> this is my last attempt.

        Well, I have tried to see your point, but I have obviously
 failed.  As far as I can see, you seem to think I need to coach
 people about how to send mail -- either encrypted mail, or PGP/MIME
 mail, both of which are covered in excruciating detail in standards,
 and I even posted a list of mail clients that can deliver this.

        I have no desire to hand hold people and teach them how ti
 send mail (or type, for that matter). You, apparently, seem to think
 I have some such obligation.  I beg to differ.

        I am pretty sure if people ask on the mailing list, they'll
 find some people willing to teach them how to use mail.  This is not
 an chore I fancy, is all.

Chaos is King and Magic is loose in the world.
Manoj Srivastava <srivasta@debian.org> <http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/>
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

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