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Re: buildd administration

On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 10:16:37PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> Anthony Towns <aj@azure.humbug.org.au> writes:
> > That's non-sensical. Everything the buildds do is logged pretty much
> > immediately onto http://buildd.debian.org/, which also provides long
> > running statistics on how effective the buildds are, and even a schedule
> > of what the buildds will be working on next.
> That tells us what the buildds are doing.  It doesn't tell us anything
> about what the buildd admins are doing.

It tells you what the buildd admins are doing with the buildds.

It doesn't tell you why they're doing that, of course, but if that's
what you want to know you're better off creating an environment where
folks are interested in talking to you.

> > Well, the question is "are things wrong" ? AFAICS, they aren't -- and
> > when I suggested building a webpage tracking the complaints, the only
> > response was "ha, what a waste of time".
> Can you explain then why my recent request went unanswered for a
> month?

No, because I've no idea what your request was or what its importance
was compared to other pressing issues. If there was a page tracking such
issues that I could follow -- like the one Jeroen set up for tracking
and diagnosing removals needed from the archive prior to his inclusion
in the ftpteam -- I might be able to do so, but I understand you're
dismissive of that approach.

> > Ingo's burnt a fair number of bridges wrt buildd issues; I'm sorry,
> > but I don't really care if volunteers decline to work with people who're
> > obnoxious and rude.
> I do.  

That's your choice.

> > That's not a productive attitude. If they don't have time to answer
> > questions, they almost certainly don't have time to ask for help,
> > either. 
> Hogwash.  What seems to be absent from the mind of the people
> responsible is that when they don't have time, they can say "I don't
> have time to do this job anymore; I'm sorry, but I really would like
> to step down."  

Not at all. Indeed, that's happened in the past -- Joey and James
tried to close new-maintainer in July 1999 insisting they needed help,
and n-m continued in a crap state until October when James quit from
new-maintainer outright. It nevertheless took until April 2000 before
new maintainers began being accepted. And new-maintainer's not without
it's continuing problems even after that process. I don't think that's
a model that bears repeating, personally. You're welcome to your own
opinion of course.

> It is clear that some of the fiefdoms are run by people who adopt this
> attitude: "If you criticize me publicly, then I will slow-pedal your
> requests."  

Perhaps you should talk to Nathaniel, who seems to think public criticism
is effective in today's Debian, and work out some consensus reality.

> This is an infantile and counterproductive attempt to
> maintain control and a sense of superiority.  

I don't believe this is the case. If you believe you know the people
involved better than I do, and your judgement is thus better informed,
you are, again, welcome to it.

How many more years are we going to waste time with this hysteria before
realising it doesn't achieve anything but "rapidly sucking the fun out
of things"?

(BTW, I see #335981 and #336371 haven't received a response since late
October; or has raptor been down that entire time, so that you haven't been
able to diagnose it further -- it certainly seems down now?)


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