Re: Lost Trust
On Tue, Jun 01, 2004 at 03:22:16AM +0200, Marek Habersack wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 01, 2004 at 10:33:39AM +1000, Matthew Palmer scribbled:
> I just can't help myself, sorry
>
> [snip]
> > > > about, there wasn't much else we could do.
> > >
> > > How does removing firmware "help" free software?
> >
> > Firstly, we're not "removing firmware" we're removing non-free firmware.
> is it like buttering the bread vs breading the butter?
No, it's adding a qualification that was potentially misleading.
> > As to how removing non-free firmware helps free software, it helps for many
> > of the same reasons removing non-free <anything> helps free software.
> >
> > 1) It encourages free alternatives to be written.
> Everytime I see some smartass writing that, I wish they would actually
> damned code that alternative. Then and ONLY then they have the right to
> remove anything.
The right? Where does it say Debian doesn't have the right to not
distribute *anything* at all? If Debian, as a project, decided we weren't
going to distribute GCC, who would be reasonably able to say "you do not
have the right to remove GCC!"? Nobody.
As for coding alternatives, I've written a small chunk of Free Software over
the years. Whether it's an alternative to something that only existed in
non-free form previously, I can't honestly say. But certainly free
alternatives to non-free software have been written - xpdf as an alternative
to acroread, kaffe as an alternative to the Sun JDK, and Mono and dotGNU as
an alternative to .NET. What exactly the authors of those free alternatives
were motivated by, I truly cannot say, but it's entirely possible that part
of the motivation was because they were non-free, people stood up and
publically said so, and someone thought "I'd really like a Free Software
version of that piece of software".
> > 2) It encourages original vendors to open their source to the community if
> > they deem it appropriate.
> prove it - give some examples
Adaptec.
> > 3) It encourages people to support vendors who follow the tenets of free
> > software, making it a more profitable move to do so.
> ditto
Ditto.
> > 4) It increases awareness of free software and it's tenets.
> or rather creates a notion of closed-minded bunch of loonies who repeat
> their "free, freee, freeeeee" mantra without looking around themselves and
> getting down to earth. Yes, I've heard people saying they wouldn't switch to
> free software precisely because of that reason... They compared the free
> software community (represented by the "free uber alles" bunch, alas) to a
> fanatic religious group, yes, a sect. Did you consider that #4 above can be
> quite the contrary? Did it ever occur to you?
<shrug> Not everyone follows the same religion, either, and rates members
of alternatives as a "closed-minded bunch of loonies". All I can say is,
awareness of the underlying basis for our decision will help people evaluate
and make their own decision. That can only be a good thing, even if it
causes them to think that Free Software "believers" are the loonies you say
we are. As long as people think, that's about the most I will ever hope
for.
> > For firmware, (2) is the most pressing reason, with (3) close behind. (1)
> > is possible, but not as likely as, for, say, a PDF viewer. (4) is, I will
> > agree, slightly tongue-in-cheek.
> Matt, I don't know you at all, I can only read what you write and try not to
> become biased but, please, maybe we should all cut down on meaningless
> babble like the stuff above and just do the stuff we should do at debian -
> maintain and create good software? Don't take it personally, what I'm saying
> is not against you - just taking the opportunity to say (rant, whatever)
> what has been bugging me for the past few months,
I thought meaningless babble was what we produced here at "Debian Flamewars,
Inc.".
Unfortunately, you're always going to get heated discussions on various
topics, which generate large amounts of heat and not a lot of illumination,
wherever you get a large enough group of opinionated, educated individuals.
You can opt out of participating, or even knowing they go on, without any
great detriment to yourself or even the larger world, but I doubt you'll
ever stop them. People just enjoy beating their drums louder than the other
team too much to stop.
Boom, boom, BOOM,
- Matt
(Humour NOT marked)
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