Re: Vote for April 1st?
"I made this letter longer because I lack the time to make it shorter."
Thanks to everybody who replied private and on list. I reply to 'random
quotes', no offense inside! Later: This took me hours :/ anyway, peace!
>One question I have for you is: where were you the past several months
>when this was being discussed? You should have no reason to be shocked.
Busy, doing something new to my life, no strings, no net. Reading dev,
priv, mentors - the state of being shocked just keeps longer with me.
--- 'There will be no freedom without equal rights and justice.' ---
> Right. And kicking non-free out is an evangelist thing. Since Debian
> is _about Free Software_, not non-free shit.
>>> - a fully working solution,
> false. Non-free is in a sad shape on many non-i386 platforms.
non-free breakage .. from non-free being deliberately unmaintained [1]
>>> asocial! The gap between online users and dial-ins widens enough
>>> without Debian taking over 750 valuable packages away from people
> uh? I don't think that many _real_ valuable packages are in non-free.
Thanks for respecting the work of 144 dds and (me as one of) our users.
>> Packages in contrib could depend on packages not in Debians archive
installers are evil, go away
>> originate or from non-free.org when it is up.
> Nobody is going to people's hard drives and running dpkg --purge on
> those packages. Also, .deb is no magic potion that is easier to
> download than a tarball. In fact, source distributions in tar.bz2
Hello? Is that really Debian speaking there?
... i just did apt-get dist-upgrade ...
> Well let me explain it then. ..
> At the same time, Debian is a Free Software project. We care about the
> free speech benefits of free software, the value of the knowledge it
> spreads to people, and the empowerment it gives them. Non-free does
> not bring with it these benefits. It is .. the antithesis to Debian.
Yes. Yes, yes, yes! (see my resume) and no, i used slink with sysV man.
See cthugha.orig.tar about the free speech benefits, let me tell you of
the value of knowledge it has and the empowerment it gives. Explicit:
For me as user, integrator and dd it is *not* the antithesis to Debian,
but OTAH then, it's the Best Thing i know of, as in 'it saved my life'.
> what means 99% free? And you could have advocated without a section in
> Debian. What is the barrier to just advocate ... (may it take 3 years)
Two minor files not explicitly enough pd. He changed job & email.
How comes the feeling, this is all about measuring di^He-velopers on
cost of the project - some might think it's politics:
>>> - a repository of assorted documentation.
> which, if it can't be modified to match the actual state of things,
> is of questionable value. Plus, sarge at least will contain GFDL docs
> and there is hope that a compromise could be reached with GNU on that.
Even half a 'table of operator precedence' is ~ better than none, well.
Ok. You take non-free, i must not store cthugha, see, less freedom.
I store to non-free, you don't see, doesn't smell either, you happy,
me happy, project happy, we simply work - release. User like us, we do,
have fun with fine os, party with rms, don't drink, need not beat him.
Party more, talk more, we all free. Didn't even wanted it, just did.
Debian and rms party in patent office, until they give up, FREEDOM.
>>> I seriously demand (and just spent another night debugging for it)
> I don't think .. demands will be .. useful. Debian is a volunteer org.
I used the wrong word, but thought i was explicit above.
>>> - our Debian Developers' Free! work space to hold what we're working
Don't get in the way of people responsibly working for the project.
Move packages around in the archive, if you must - don't break it.
Everybody is free, i respect you and your work, listen, while you speak.
We have PEACE for work and we don't kill the files, each other needs.
--- Free as in free food, free access, freedom to care ---
While i enjoyed our chat on propabilities of the inversion of perception
of freedom by imposing pressure just long enough, fun is over when it
comes to sitting on others peoples faces:
>>> - *THE OS Onestop* that we proudly offer as our work, as The source
>>> of reliability - especially for users with bad / expensive connects.
> I don't know what an "os onestop" is.
Hm - example: No non-free, no genuine docs with debian, what do people
with good connectivity do: skim the net and evtly. find what they need.
Do you remember the last time with your 33k4 modem? Mine is 9k6. And
we're not talking about speed, but M o n e y. Not yours, but other
peoples money, they evtly. don't have, or have to take it from other
money, for food for instance. Can you imagine? No? Try harder, then!
I could quote and explain forever. Short: If one ceases to think and
feel, one gives up what's first in any definition of a human being.
> Nothing will stop others from setting up a non-free repo
> Nothing will stop you from using that non-free repository.
> - the debian archive that i work for to run my computers
> I don't see why removing non-free is "ferociously destroying" Debian
Exactly that is my complain. You talk, but don't care a bit for any of
Debian users, you show no respect to nothing at all. That is why doing
so, is active, deliberate destruction of credebility and any notion of
responsability that Debian stands for and should so, against its users.
>>> - our Debian Developers' Free! work space to hold what we work on
> Again I don't really know what you're talking about. Are you asserting
> that Debian should be in the business of providing space and bandwidth
> to anything developers happen to be working on, whether or not it is
> Free or of any interest to Debian?
The good DD is a responsible person, he receives trust and is worth it.
I'd better not explain this here, as it seems not all dds have enough
inner strength and responsability to take it, but since you asked:
After having undertaken ALL measures, not! just tried! to, i'd surely
work on that proprietary driver for the camera, eg. that i download
from warez.xy, trying to re-engineer it, keep my files safe on d.o
machines and clean everything up after i'm finished with it.
That is tradition, valuable work, responsively done - and if you think a
second, that i should not do that, in any responsible way i do it - then
this is NOT a FREE project. Comprehensible?
Debian developers deliberately make it extremely difficult for me to
support my packages by ... - so many measures that you start to feel
and see if you HAVE TO PAY 1.5 cent/minute! *Picking in your fellow dds
pockets* to get any juvenile games going, not even taking care how much
you defeat people, that really spend their lives for free sw to become
reality is of the most disgusting plays i know of! Comprehensible?
Have a life that's worth living it, make use of your connectivity and
intellectual property to [refrain to interfere with readers imagination]
The youth i am actively training (for free as in free food) are shocked
from reading debian-devel, they ask "why people from & !from Debian try
to actively destroy Debian, actively boycott other dds and me as a user
of the Debian operating system." They are p**d not only of simple math:
(300 Euro - ISDN(apt-get)) !=!=!= (300 Euro - ISDN(googling for hours))
This is REAL; responsively, theories are checked against this. Some more
problematic aspects of violent dfsg-freenes were raised yet - this test
also fails. Expect those aspects of responsability become emphasized,
less discussing it but, eg. working on techn. solutions, deb-offline
pkgs and structures and working on a minimum necessary commitment
to common sense, to avoid 'BUG: pls remove 'taking care of users'.
Right now let's have some fun to the end - it's near ... ;-)
--- Freedom as in nothing left to lose ---
>> Debian without 'apt-get install atari800' - no way, that this
>> could ever be the OS of my choice! I would be ashamed
> Uhm, seriously now, I think plenty of people would say that an OS is
> plenty valuable even without an atari emulator of good quality.
> ..
> That is a terribly weak argument on your part.
I started work at ATARI /Warner December 1982, translated GEM and the XE
manuals for ATARI Corp. '85 and have hw out there at my customers that
heavily borrowed from an excellent design but can no longer get spare
parts. Atari800 is *not* a generic emulator, but aims to be accurate.
Kernel-src.debs and the ATARI 10K operating system are of a very few i
call os, and i run them daily. DOS2/FMS interface stability >24years ;)
Hope you'll like my examples i want to add when we're through with this.
[[2], [3],] [4]
Atari800 is Free! software, even DFSG, not useless .., lives in contrib
> so it isn't even in non-free? What the hell are you complaining
People raise that they feel distracted from the way communications are
But in the end: fun = success = (done / promises); // ? -> [4].
Skimming the source, i see so many efforts of fine people@d.o, designing
structure, fleshing out - open wide, allow Debian to grow from the work
of its volunteers. Let's get a living .org, where one can and loves to
work, can rely on a tidy archive, maintained with what we're coming up
with, to meet the demands that we want Debian.org to be able to meet.
In a real world we wouldn't have time to jump on each other. I don't.
I love to do for Debian/GNU, that i use, and i know there are nearly
1000 o fyou out there - let us not show our d* (!!discrimination;),
let our os show, that we really made it! Free! and Fun!
> I care, and I am undecided.
> You are a Debian Developer, you are entitled to vote
Sure, man, thanks man !-)
Have a nice day, martin
--
Vote for Freedom - vote for debian/dists/non-free.
Vote for justice - vote for The Debian Social Contract.
---
[1]
>> - a fully working solution,
> false. Non-free is in a sad shape on many non-i386 platforms.
> Packages .. are not fixed because we either *can't* due to legal
> reasons or lack of source code, or .. because of indifference.
As a quality aware maintainer, of a non-free package that i'm unable to
build for some weeks, "indifference" really has a meaning ;)
> I have no expectation that a random package out of non-free will
> actually work on my Alpha or PowerPC
Debian machines are not available for maintainers to properly install,
test and debug their programs. Given, what the average dd is able to
do@d.o, when looking for reasons of non-free breakage chances are good
with the deliberately bad support of non-free and maintainers that want
to work there. Saying nothing about the bitpicking state of d.o that it
is going along to be in. ... last time i wanted to look, that is.
[2] (importance: low)
> > > > > contrib, because it needs some ROM images, that nobody _can_
> > > > > make free as there is no one left who owns their copyrights
> Presumably somebody that wanted to could write their own ROM for it.
I know that 10KByte code quite intimately and second, you had to know it
that intimately because it was the way to program, in less then 10KB of
ram on an average machine, to reuse rom as much as possible. Each app
of any value relies on undoc'd, *builtin ROM*. There were some 5, you
use one for half the programs and two for the other. Any OS ROM image
would have to be (nearly) identical to be of any use.
Did we mention, that thess roms are available legally for download?
[3] (importance: low)
> > > I was actually able to find quite a few DFSG compatible ROM's for
> > > atari800 on the web. I don't know if the atari800 emu requires
> > > the Atari OS ROM(non-free) to run them though.
There are; many useful, free software (i offer com plugs for R: dev);
for some, free init routines may suffice, no ram constraints today, but
then i had in mind to use software available here in the first place ;)
[4]
Atari800 is Free! software, even DFSG, not useless without roms, lives
in contrib as an aid to users to identify, there might be issues. The
minute before, it got a new maintainer, motivated'n'all, new display
driver and joystick generalization sketched from a user who's happy
to even be the maintainer, it's FREE, no advocacy necessary, fine!
> so it isn't even in non-free? What the hell are you complaining about
> The GR, if accepted, won't lead to the removal of contrib, only
The first appearance of this GR mentioned contrib explicit along
non-free. Force, speculations, pushing - isn't all that motivating?
Taking care, you notice people raise that they feel distracted from the
way communications are held @.d.o - while at the same time it can be
hard to follow that on an unstable system ... No way for us to be half
as good as everybody? wants it, without open communication, common
sense, pardon, spirit to get together somewhere. No way, while using a
Debian machine feels bad and gains you nothing but costs. Want success?
Don't hide! Have passion, patience, a good mood. Be prepared! In the
end: fun = success = done / promises;
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