Re: Future of Debian uncertain?
On Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 10:44:41PM -0500, Vassilii Khachaturov wrote:
> Excellent point. I had the same issue with Debian advocacy amongst the
> local users. Maybe we should have a splash screen mention BTS during the
> installation, and then a reminder for every desktop system 1st time
> launch? A lot is done already with the debianized default bookmarks
> on Debian Support in the browser pkgs like Mozilla.
>
> I've just re-read my own post before hitting send and started
> disagreeing with myself :-) There are very visible links from
> www.debian.org to Debian Support (#debian, BTS, mailing lists).
> Maybe if a user is as clueless that it (as opposed to he or she for a
> more intelligent one) can't pass this low barrier of RTFMing, it's good
> because otherwise a lot of energy would have been drawn off real support
> issues for other users. So maybe we shouldn't be too aggressive in
> shoving support onto the luser.
The problem, as ever, is the sheer volume of FM. Seriously, the massive
amount of documentation on Debian is incredible. Have you gone and
looked at it? Say you've gone through the install guide and you found
it useful, being a clued user. You then decide to go see what other
docs are available to teach you how to use Debian. There's Debian
GNU/Linux FAQ, the Release Notes, the Reference, the APT HOWTO (no one
using Debian can live without apt), the dselect documentation, the
User's Guide, The Debian Guide, The Debian Linux User's Guide, the
Securing Manual (no one wants to be hacked), and the Linux Cookbook.
After you've parsed through some of these (including three, count them
three!, user's guides) you then see that there's all the other info out
there from google (if you don't use a search engine before asking
questions then people will flame you), the standard manpages, the stuff
from the LDP, various message boards around, and the volumous info
contained in /usr/share/doc/*.
And this is just to get the system running and use it in a basic manner
in the first place! How do you know what FM to R? The size of this
project is immense, and compounded with the information for other
*NIXes it creates some confusion for the new user. I can't tell you how
many times I've had to tell clued users who are new to Debian that they
should use dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86 rather than xf86config.
This is just one example, the way we do things in Debian is different,
which is why there's such a hard core constituency of users. But it
makes things very hard on the initial user. I was a fairly clued user,
learning just about everything on my own by reading what was out there
already, but I was scared to death of the BTS for a long time. I know
I'm not alone in this one.
> Now if the project ever grows to a lot of front-line support volunteer
> personnel, the barrier can and should be lowered, maybe even to the
> point that a system might even suggest contacting debian support in case
> the user has any concerns about the system operation, and then the
> support front-line will gradually guide the user through RTFMing,
> thus even seducing into Debian usage those types of people that would
> otherwise never approach the system. I think this is better way for
> evolution towards usability by more people, rather than going into
> MS-ish
> number-of-features-and-hot-new-software-available-right-from-the-oven
> type hype. If anyone thinks it's worth it, feel free to fwd the
> suggestions to debian-project, I'm still very new to the Debian inner
> organizational innards to judge if such approach is viable in any near
> future. While it is not, let's keep the barrier of learning about Debian
> support right about where it is.
The problem with doing support is that it sucks. If you don't know that
right away, I suggest doing it for a while. Even getting paid to do it
sucks, and doing it as a volunteer is usually frustrating at best. So
finding people who are really dedicating to just doing front line
support for users is going to be hard. -users does a good job of it on
its own. Also, from what I've seen in #debian, users who actually stick
around learn things really quick. Even experienced users pick up tricks
all the time from each other. Like you've said, no one who isn't
willing to put in the work of RTFMing is going to learn anything, but
those who put in work or just plain hang around and listen or read will
get really good really fast.
What I'm saying is that when you're in a forum like -user or #debian,
STFW and RTFM are standard expectations. If you don't do them, you're
not going to get any help if you do. I say, in these debian fora,
Searching the Fucking BTS should perhaps create a holy trinity of
cluebats (or perhaps learn towards a Douglas Adams style of numbering
and also put in Search Fucking /usr/share/doc). Ultimately, exhorting
users to learn about Debian specific resources (BTS, /usr/share/doc,
and debian-* archives) are things that should be emphasized as much as
the beauty of apt-get. All I ever hear Debian being great for is
fucking apt. Apt is great, but if it weren't for all the infrastructure
around it, we'd just be Connectiva. This isn't really a concrete issue
like "we need software to do x", or else I would be coding or just not
saying anything. This is more a general mindset related to both user
support and evangelism. Think of it as marketing, Debian-style. Sell
our features, and in doing so users will know better what to expect
from Debian, which in turn will help us to support them better rather
than repeating these damn discussions about the death of Debian over
this or that missing feature or bug.
- David (who has ranted far too much)
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