Re: changing flavor of the linux world? was: craig sanders
On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Jules Bean wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 03:38:13PM +0100, Russell Coker wrote:
> > the course of 10 years. In fidonet days Craig was just one of many
> > technically skilled people who didn't mind telling idiots to fuck off...
> Indeed, you think that's a good thing? I've told people to fuck off in
> the past, but I can't remember an instance that I'm proud of..
I have, and some times I'm proud of it, but that's mostly because of the
WAY I've done it: telling people to fuck off is one thing, making people
want to because it's the better alternative is fun.
> > One thing that you really need to learn is that the Internet is run in an
> > anarchistic fashion. You can't force people to do what you want. If people
> > do things you dislike then you can filter out their email, use
> > iptables/ipchains to block their IPs, and pretend that they don't exist.
> All of which is true, I guess, but I don't think it changes the moral
> Gratuitously offending and upsetting people is wrong.
> There are a few people on this list who won't agree with that. There
> are many who would have rather varying definitions of 'gratuitous',
> 'offense' and 'upset', which is the way life is --- these things are
> relative and subjective.
Again, no argument, but it IS making one of my points: you can't muzzle
anyone because somebody took offense: there's no objective way
to tell which one is "in the right".
> Some people are saying that words are irrelevant, you can just ignore
> them. Words aren't irrelevant, they're very powerful (hence this
> Some people are saying that Thomas should just ignore Craig. There's
> merit in that view.
> But it really surprises me the amount of people who seem to be saying
> that Craig was right?
Not that Craig was right, that Thomas was in the wrong by suggesting that
Craig be kicked off the mailinglists. Craig was a bad boy, but you don't
execute somebody for being a bad boy.
> Do you really think it's OK to upset and offend people? Would you
> stand by someone who, when on a train, stoop up and told his fellow
> passengers they were all wankers? Would you stand by someone who
> regularly in his canteen at work told the cooks they were losers stuck
> in a dead-end job?
Would you suggest that they had their tongues cut out for it?
> Do you really think that just because debian is a cooperative anarchy,
> we should have no standards of decency? [I'm not necessarily that such
> standards are codified or enforced, I'm suggesting that most of us
> think they exist, deep down]
Standards of Decency, yes: social pressure: yes, kicking off mailinglists
because of profanity: no
> I think that to work together in a large project, it is an important
> exercise to show respect for other participants, even when you think
> they're wrong about something.
No argument. But the respect has to be mutual, and publically calling for
banning from mailinglists is NOT a sign of respect.
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