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Re: First Test Cycle starts today

I have to apologise in advance to most of you, but Joseph Carter has
chosen to publically flame the release mgr for taking a package out
that Carter was late in uploading due to a choice he himself made
(which he attributes to his "real life concerns".)

The package is an irc client. We have irc clients. It's not like we
need them all.

Yes, it does sux that he couldn't get it in this time, but it's 
not critical in any way.

In addition, if the boot floppies versioned 2.2.12 use the kernel
versioned 2.2.14 and the security patch referred to by Wichert
has not been applied to it, there is a chance for a second test

(However, that patch was sent to the kernel image maint around
2 weeks ago)

Also in the note, Carter refers to -private material. 

Again, apologies in advance; and please don't read beyond this point
if you don't want to hear it.

------ heats up below this line ------

Joseph Carter:

Want some cheese with that whine?? 

> Date:    Tue, 02 May 2000 04:04:21 PDT
> To:      Richard Braakman <dark@xs4all.nl>
> cc:      debian-devel@lists.debian.org
> From:    Joseph Carter <knghtbrd@debian.org>
> Subject: Re: First Test Cycle starts today
> On Tue, May 02, 2000 at 12:35:19PM +0200, Richard Braakman wrote:
> > The first official Test Cycle has started today.  It's not entirely my
> > doing, but such things gather momentum :-)
> Well thanks for the advance warning!

Yes, thanks Richard (also known as "dark" on IRC: I sometimes refer to
him by that here). I was one of many (err, (many - 1) as it may turn out)
who knew two weeks ago that the first test cycle would be today.

> > The next few days will be dedicated to getting test-ready boot-floppies
> > and CD images.  I will only make changes to frozen that are necessary
> > for getting those ready.
> What, you have no more packages to toss out of the distribution because
> they have important bugs filed that you didn't even read as with epic4?

That's the process. "important" is in the set of release-critical 
severities. Please stop crying that you didn't know. That's plain 

> > After that, the distribution will be tested for about 10 days, during
> > which it will not change at all.  After testing comes an evaluation
> > period, during which we either release potato as-is, or install any
> > fixes necessary (which one hopes will be available in Incoming already;
> > is not, there will be an extra delay), and start a new Test Cycle.
> Fact is that you removed at lest one package (mine) filed 29 Apr 2000.
> This was a whole ... what, four days ago?  And it's been removed even
> though the upstream maintainer has a fix for the problem already.  He said
> he couldn't get it to me until Monday, which just ended.  I wasn't able to
> catch him yesterday because of real life concerns.

Here you admit fault. 

Or, are you saying dark is at fault for your real life concerns?? Real
life has consequences. Not getting to work on time could get you fired. 
You gonna blame your boss for your real life concerns??

Here, we're discussing an IRC client. On what planet is that even
close to important?? In that discussion, you are flaming dark harshly
and -publically-.

> > I've made my last run of Incoming this morning.  I'll install no more
> > packages in frozen until after the Test Cycle.  If you have an upload
> > that really must go in, then you can try to get me to do it before I
> > leave work today; that's about four hours from now.
> Four hours..  Thanks for the amazing amount of notice.  

Here's some more cheese. You've had wayyy too much whine. You had to
know the test cycle start date TWO WEEKS in advance. If he let
packages in on the 2nd, the test would have started on the THIRD. 
You're flaming dark now because YOU were late, and because you didn't 
think the process through. Please next tell us you were unaware
that he's in Europe, or that there exist developers outside US time
zones! PLEASE think things through next time! You've taken this tone
quite recently; others should trust you when you do.



> I should by all
> rights be asleep at this time of morning (4am) and you have given me until
> the time I should have been waking up to fix a problem that I probably
> wouldn't have even known about until then.
> Oh wait - my package has already been removed!  No horizon, no
> announcement, just your decision to arbitrarily pull a bunch of packages
> and close frozen to new updates.

You trying to tell us you didn't know the deal?? Maybe you forgot dark's
note asking if a test phase would be OK on this date. Maybe you didn't
know the test phase started today.

> After DSA was flamed to hell and back for posting too little detail about
> what they were doing, I would have expected that you would have had the
> forethought to consider posting what you were planning BEFORE you went
> through ripping pretty solid packages out of the distribution, seemingly
> without so much as reading the bug report..

Joe, that discussion is PRIVATE. What part of private do you not understand?

> If you HAD read it, you would see quite clearly that:
>  * the bug affects one single script NOT PACKAGED (for a reason)
>  * the bug has ALREADY BEEN FIXED

So you didn't apply the fix on time. Your choice, your fault.

>  * a patch for this single issue would be sent as soon as the upstream
>    author was able to do so
>  * The bug is a total of FOUR days old.

New bugs for old! Who will trade my new bugs for old??

So you would hold up the test cycle on these points?? Oh please, gimme a
break. Waiting for your upload (which -you- did not make on time: patch
existed, you could have done it if you cared this much) would have CANCELLED
the test. Did you see dark's note to wichert saying the new kernel with
its -security- fixes would also have to be on time? I did. He said that 
a problem such as that would cancel the test phase if it had to be uploaded
late, and he didn't want to make that decision early.

Joe, there's probably some opportunity in this situation: if the security-
fixed kernel is not in now, then there might be a second test phase. Fix
the bug. Re-introduce the package after the test phase is complete. If you
-don't- do this, then you will have shown you don't care after all, and
you will have flamed the release manager for NOTHING.

> If this much attention to detail was paid to all of the packages you
> removed, I think we have a problem.

No, your problem is that it's -your- package. -You- were -late-. It's -your-
bad, -not- his. Why you flaming him so hard over an IRC client??


Jim Lynch       Finger for pgp key
as Laney College CIS admin:  jim@laney.edu   http://www.laney.edu/~jim/
as Debian developer:         jwl@debian.org  http://www.debian.org/~jwl/

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