Re: Moving contrib and non-free of master.debian.org
Michael Stone wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 03:24:27AM -0500, R. Brock Lynn wrote:
> > Michael Stone wrote:
> > > Are we ever going to have a release in which we don't dramatically
> > > change package locations? Are we really trying to make it harder for
> > > people to use debian?
> >
> > Um, like it takes only one extra line in /etc/apt/sources.list to make
> > up for a split server.
> [snip]
> > That's all most users will ever need to know, if that.
> One of debian's cool points is ease of upgrades. But we consistently
> throw that away. I didn't say it was a hard change to make. What I'm
> saying is that all the documentation that tells people where to look for
> debian packages is obsoleted. All the experience that tells people to
> poke around on ftp.debian.org or their favorite mirror for whatever
> they're looking for is now obsoleted.
The trick is implementing the split servers AND the unified one at the same time
for several months before taking the old one down permanently!
Then urge people to adopt the 'new' organization, all the while spreading the
NEWS that a new organization is available for trying out, and that they better
start using it, because x number of months from now, the old system is going
away...
This way you allow use of the old system as well as the new one if necessary for
some users who are less skilled and knowledgeable about debian's structure,
etc., and to be consistent with old documentation, but you try to get the word
out that change is going to happen, and that everyone that uses debian needs to
learn what's "going down" / what's changing.
A fact of life remains... change is inevitable... (always out with the old and
in the new and, hopfully, better. It's how you deal with the change that counts
the most. Do you want a smooth transition, or a bumpy one? The smoother the
better of course. And you want to keep the users' attitudes happy not angry at
the change. So it would be unwise to change the system out from under them with
no safety net all at once, but rather doing it in stages would be best:
Create the new structure, i.e. two servers hosting 'main' (completely free) and
'allother' (mostly non-free, and some other stuff)
Then keep the old structure in place for some time as everyone tries to adapt to
the new change, and as you try to get the word out. A notice on the main web
site home page would be nice, and an explanation of what is going on and why,
and how to cope, and that the old system will still be around for a while, but
to try to use the new one and get used to it, and if you find bugs, then file
bug reports of some kind about it, and let all the kinks get ironed out in the
process. I think that would work jolly well.
> All the systems people set up to
> access .debs are now obsoleted (and will break suddenly and
> inexplicably.)
Then they might be tempted to go to http://www.debian.org/ and find out what's
up... or ask around on irc.openprojects.net or on lists.debian.org or maybe see
what's up in Debian Weekly News... And eventually they'll figure out why APT
isn't working anymore...
BUT hopefully a safety net old system will still be left in place for some time
so that everyone that's anyone will have already found out by the time the
safety net system is taken down / changed. :)
> All kinds of URL's are obsoleted. Sure, it's easy to fix
> on an individual basis, but we're generating a lot of work (and possibly
> some bad will?) and adding needless complications to the system. And
> this happens to our users on a regular basis.
Well, certainly at every step a pragmatic comparison of work and complication
versus what good the act will accomplish should be done, and if the work and
complication sky-rockets, then maybe the effort should be abandoned, but if it's
bearable technically, and is mostly supported by everyone in the debian
community, then by all means we should do it... that is if everyone thinks it's
worth doing...
> Who is this reorganization for? If it's for the developers, they should
> already know the difference between free and non-free.
It's for the free software community at large really I think.
> If it's for
> users, there's got to be a solution that doesn't make things harder for
> them. (The addition of an official.debian.org server would be better
> than moving things to whatever.debian.org if people really can't live
> without doing something.)
Think safety net, and think (rather than sudden shift) ... gradual change over
several months or more, all the while getting the message out.
--Brock
--------------------- PGP key ID: FED76A3D <brock@cyberdude.com> 4 / 5 / 1999
__ _ Debian GNU R. Brock Lynn (bytopian on irc #debian)
/ /(_)_ __ _ ___ __ http://www.debian.org/ irc.openprojects.net
/ / | | '_ \| | | \ \/ / Free Software!
/ /__| | | | | |_| |> < Remember that's "Free" as in Freedom!,
\____/_|_| |_|\__,_/_/\_\ Not Free as in price. Debian's 'Da Bomb!
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