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Re: calling Philip Hands <phil@hands.com>

On Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 03:09:22PM -0400, Branden Robinson wrote:

[i know this is off-topic, but i can't let your unwarranted attack go
unanswered. if you want the quick version of this message it can be
summed up in the phrase "Get a clue!". if you want the long version,
read on]

> Congratulations, thanks to Paul Vixie and people like him, you live
> in a place that is regarded as a ghetto.  You have comitted the
> unpardonable sin of failing to use a mail relay altogether, or using
> one that isn't regarded as being in a good part of town.
> Remember, according to Paul Vixie, it's not a shameful thing live in a
> ghetto.

using DUL has nothing to do with "ghettos" - it is entirely to do with
the undisputable fact that almost all spam comes directly from dialup IP
addresses, sent from throw-away dialup accounts.

> Some fine, upstanding net-citizens happen to live in ghettos.  But
> we don't want to deal with them because we never can tell if those
> ghetto rats are spammers or not until it's too late.  So we'll
> just assume you're a piece of human trash until you get yourself a
> nailed-up static IP.  If you're not affluent enough to not look like a
> ghetto rat by doing so, well, that's not our problem.  But above all,
> remember that being a ghetto rat is not a shameful thing.

you miss the point entirely.  here it is:


what this means is that if someone *chooses* not to receive mail from
known spammers using the MAPS RBL, or from open relays using the ORBS
RBL, or from dialup IP addresses using the MAPS DUL or IMRSS DSSL
then that is THEIR choice. no-one is forcing it on them, use of these
services is completely voluntary.

it is oafish of you to attack paul vixie for providing a free and very
useful service which many people voluntarily choose to use because it
has demonstrated it's worth in reducing spam.

as far as the DUL blocks go, they are becoming the only thing around
which *can* block spam. using open relays is going out of fashion
amongst spammers (partly because it's becoming illegal to steal computer
resources like that in most parts of the world, but mostly due to the
efforts of MAPS and ORBS)....what this means is that spammers now use
dialup accounts to send spam directly to their victims.

spammers won't use their ISP's mail relay because that will get their
account nuked very quickly.

legitimate, non-spamming users can still get their mail out by using
their ISP's mail relay. blocking direct mail from dialup IP addresses
is a GOOD THING, with insignificant side-effects. it blocks spam very
effectively (DUL is way more effective than other RBLs), and it also
serves to put responsibility for spammers back onto the ISPs who sell
them accounts.

in summary: if you don't like it, then tough luck - no one is under any
obligation to receive your mail. if you want to communicate with people,
it's up to you to do so in an acceptable manner.

> [That said, I do not know if Mr. Vixie is directly responsible for
> this ORBS thing; however, he is father of the RBL and sponsors a
> related blacklist for dialup IP blocks.  But certainly Mr. Vixie
> deserves credit for this innovation, as he was the first to do it.  We
> wouldn't dream of acknowledging the second-handers and parasites who
> have merely imitated his creative genius.]

[ it seems obvious that you know little about the fight against spam ]

ORBS has no relationship to MAPS. in fact, there have been bitter
arguments between the two groups.  ORBS people seem to think that MAPS
is nowhere near agressive enough in blocking open relay hosts, and MAPS
people seem to think that ORBS people are dangerous loons with a touchy

the truth, as usual, lies somewhere in between both extreme views.


craig sanders

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