Re: tech proposal to make manoj somewhat happy.
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On 26 Jul 1998, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Unfortunately, you were unduly optimistic when you chose the
> subject.
>
> >>"Petra" == Petra, Kevin J Poorman <ewigin@SoftHome.net> writes:
>
> Petra> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Petra> Debian should commit to do any or all of the following.
>
> Petra> 1: a totaly redone install procedure, with a optional newbie
> Petra> install with help screens detailing exactly what is hapening
> Petra> and what informaion is needed so that complete newbies can
> Petra> install debian.
>
> Firstly, where are the current boot floppies falling short? I
> just installed on a laptop (my current install test machine), and I
> was pleasantly surprised. Why is a complete rewrite required? Where
> is information not sufficinet? Which boot floppy version have you
> looked at?
I addressed where the the boot floppies are falling short in another
e-mail. please referance that. secondly, I'm sugesting a complete rewrite,
because as far as I can tell, the install process has not changed in
method since I first installed rex. I've been working with the latestet
set that was on the cd I got from netgod. 2.0.8_1998-06-23 is the version
I've been looking at while in this .... discussion.
>
> Secondly, I think complete newbies should be pointed to
> documentation before they install any version/flavour of UNIX; since
> maintenance of a UNIX workstation is not a task for absolute
> newbies. A certain modicum of expertise is still required.
I dissagree with you completly, a complete newbie given a clean install
with good docs, will learn to do things the right way instead of how
someone else showed them.
>
> Petra> a: the gui system for install should probably be based on w96 (a
> Petra> small 2 color windowing system)
>
> Why? What is wrong with the current approach used by APT? Have
> you compiled a kernel, and looked at what make menuconfig does? what
> is w96? Do you have a URL? how does it compare with dialog, slag, and
> ncurses? What are the advantages? Why should we switch to a totally
> new windowing system?
yes manoj, I have compiled a kernel, MANY of them infact... and I know
what slang, newt, dialog, make menuconfig and ncurses are and what they
do... thanks for the credit. w96 is a 2 color 640x480 windowing system,
that is small, and quick. w96 can be found by a simple search on the linux
applications web page, (sounds like someone didn't do there homework). and
as to your last question. 1: why not. 2: it's time for a change.
>
> Petra> b: a port of apt to w96 or whatever gui chosen should be looked
> Petra> into.
>
> What is wrong with the current approach used by APT? I think
> Jason has researched the GUI part of APT quite well. What does your
> approach have which is so much better that we are prepared to throw
> all the code that has been written away?
I never said throw it away. again your twisting my words to the point of
completely skewing there meaning. I said a port should be looked into.
>
> Petra> c: the console install should be completly rewriten to
> Petra> include better error handleing and faster base install
> Petra> suport... mabye move from a tar archive to a cpio, or ar, or
> Petra> even zip archive...
>
> Umm, where do we use a pure tar archive? Do you know what the
> .deb format uses? What tar archive are you talking about? Why should
> we move to zip, which is an encumbered format, when we have gzip ang
> bzip2? Have you compared the compression ratios achieved? Do you know
> that zip is not the most efficient?
the deb format consists of a ar archive of 3 files. control.tar.gz,
data.tar.gz and debian-binary. I never said that we use a pure tar
archive. however we do use a tar.gz archive for the base install. I'm
sujesting we look into other archive formats to see if a speed improvment
is to be had. ie: a gz of a cpio archive... or whatever.
>
> Petra> Of the above, on the part about useing zip could even remotly
> Petra> be considered a compromise to techincal quality. (and even
> Petra> then only becuase I don't know that zips licens is.
>
> Oh, Jeeze.
after sending that mail, I have found tha zip is not a valid option.
>
> Petra> debian should also have a firm and well known and loved logo. a contest
> Petra> should be held for this ... possibly debian should do as gimp does and
> Petra> offer a reward. ...
>
> We already have a logo. Captain Blue-eyes. (Not that I am
> averse to a contest -- but we had a contest). Do you know there was
> an effort ongoing for an year before the current logo was chosen?
what was the motive? ... none. afaik. captian blue-eyes, is rather
unispired and not very indicitive of the rather ... spirited ppl who run
debian.
>
> Petra> this also does not comprimise technical quality.
>
> No, but it shows you have not done your homework.
I knew about blue-eyes, however I don't count him as a logo, becuase the
developers did not have a say in it's selection
>
> Petra> debian should also work to switch from the archaic man page
> Petra> format, by provideing as standard packages, the packages that
> Petra> will allow man pages to be served as html pages. useing lynx
> Petra> or kfm, netscape... ect.
>
> I find the man program to be faster than lynx, and less likely
> to cause problems. I find it easier to search, create bookmarks, than
> with lynx (I use less as a pager). For short looks, to refresh my
> memory, nothing beats the man program. HTML has too many options to
> be as useful; the complexity of hyperlinks is undesirable for quick
> peeks at documentation.
Not everyone uses less, or likes less. yes man itself is great for quick
looks, however for the beginning person, man is confusing, and rather hard
to use, however lynx is easy to use, and well documented.
>
> For longer tutorials, the HTML format is not as good as the
> info format; I can do greps across multiple info pages, which is hard
> to do with HTML without investing time and effort in external
> indexing programs.
lynx allows you to do a text search useing /
>
> Petra> I fail to see how this could be a compromise either...
>
> It is. HTML is a really poor choice, though I know it is our
> preffered doc format.
and as our preffered doc format, we should make it standard that man pages
be veiwable useing a html browser.
>
> Petra> as for error loging and handle ing all errors should be writen
> Petra> to a file and then tailed on a empty vt for console isntalls
> Petra> and to the root window for the gui/newbie install.
>
> Hmm. This actually has merit. Congratulations. How stable is rt?
rt, is halfway stable, new versions come out often... I try to stay
current with them as time allows, and as testing of the package allows...
IE: if it doesn't work for me, or my testers... i won't upload it.
>
> Petra> hows that for a tech proposal?
>
> You asked. Pretty poor, if you ask me. You haev not done your
> homework, and there is really little technical content in there.
your opionions are noted.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Particle man, Particle man
Doing the things a Particle can
Whats he like? Its not important
Particle man is he a dot, or is he a speck
When He's underwater does he get wet, or does the water get him instead?
- -Particle Man, by They Might Be Giants.
- -K
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