Re: non-DFSG section and CD distributers
I think we are losing track of the point. Those of us arguing "against?" the
dfsg are simply maybe hoping for some small consideration toward revision.
Not voting to scrap the whole thing, just work some to recognize the other
side of the concept a little better.
Manoj,
> I, for one. like the angle we are coming from.
for one...
> Paul> I will not argue the GPL. If I had my way, all Debian software
> Paul> would be GPLed. However, there is a reality to which we must
> Paul> submit -- the reality that we simply enough live in a commercial
> Paul> world.
>
> And, from the viewpoint of the commercial world, what we do
> is insane, and immediately dismissed. Why *should* we pay any more
> attention to the dictates of commercial enterprise than they do of
> us? (Ever see anything about Linux in information week?)
that's a nice load of crap. What, for example, is the most used (commercial
and non) web server? Apache -- and its free. And I just wish I had my little
brother's memory here now. If so, I'd give the the issue, page, etc of the
InfoWeek which named Linux as the only real threat to Microsoft.
Besides that, is it sane to go at this project (the Debian project) with the
idea that we aren't being taken seriously?
> Secondly, we have managed to survive quite well despite our
> DFSG and seeming disregard for the fact that we live in a commercial
> world.
Survive, survive? Did I hear you say the word survive? Come on, anyone who
pays attention to the Linux "market" realizes that it changes faster the you
can catch up with it. We could easily be ahead of RedHat in a year. Or we
could be old news.
> Paul> 1. Free software is most often better then non-free software.
> Paul> I believe this stems from many facets, including both the heart
> Paul> and soul put into it and the concept of something always coming
> Paul> better from volunteers then forced labor.
>
> Paid labor, though, is a whole new ball game. Putting on my
> commercial hat, a paid team, with hard deadlines, can often produce
> results, taking unpopular decisions that need be taken, and
> performing tasks that are not fun, but are required, and can produce
> the finished product that volunteers very rarely do. (GNU and Linux
> software seem to be exceptions). Quality wise, we have nothing that
> comes close to any commercial word processor, web browser, photoshop,
> coreldraw, page maker, frame maker, quicken. ....
when was the last time you used the Gimp...
> You have to draw the line some where. And the projedct drew
> the line at the DFSG. It *is* like netscape -- it is just a matter of
> degree.
"the project"? I don't think "the project" drew the line anywhere. There are
too many people complaining now for "the project" to have been responsible for
the line drawing... basically, the DFSG are (trying to be nice) in need of
revision.
> Also, we are not the representatives of the Linux
> community. We are not even the representative distribution. Most
> Linux heavywieght run Red Hat, and it is way more popular than
> us. They make all the nice political moves you advocate.
hmm. Really. I _used_ to use Redhat. So did a lot of other people I know.
I don't think what I advocate is any more political then what you advocate,
either. Just in a different way.
> Debian is not the representatiev Linux distribution, it is not
> the most popular, it is the *FREE* one. OK?
give me a break! Get over it! There is a world beyond free!
> Because by our definition of free, it is not. Sorry. Lines in
> the sand.
here comes a wave...
> Why? Why do we have to maintain good public relations?
I think that one answers itself. (does the phrase "get real" come to mind...)
> I think you do not understand what Debian is about then.
I don't think I care what Debian is about, if we are going to measure
according to your grandiose terms. I think I care about the quality of Debian.
But instead, I think I might know more about it then you expect. Debian has
this quality that the other Distributions lack. (and don't tell me"free!
free! free!") I think it stems from the fact it is maintained entirely by
volunteers and is related really closely to what makes Linux so cool.
> I have tried to be reasonable (no insults, etc). I just
> strongly believe in the DFSG. It is more than a collection of words.
> If, however, you think reasonable is a viewpoint that matches your
> own, then I guess I am not reasonable.
No, I don't "think reasonable is a viewpoint which matches" mine. You have
been very reasonable and I thank you for that...
> ps. Have we started making prospective maintainers look at the DFSG yet?
humm, get them while they're fresh and can't form their own opinions. Humm...
btw, I didn't come into the Debian project with such a strong opinion about the free/non-free thing. You guys convinced me of it.
-Paul J Thompson
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