Re: Unteralterbach
On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 9:37 PM, Bas Wijnen <wijnen@debian.org> wrote:
> So having a controversial subject can't be enough reason to get the
> opposition that we're seeing here, right? So can someone please tell me
> what the problem is?
Not quite; problems arise when you have a subject that's controversial
enough to provoke heated debate with almost no possibility of reaching
a consensus. Systemd is an excellent example of a *technical* subject
that meets the above definition, and I think we've all seen by now
just how polarized the discussion has become, and how much ill will
and animosity was generated from it. The systemd debate and the
ensuing deluge of heated discussion ("discussion" might be a generous
term; at times, it felt more like veiled insults and mud slinging) was
unfortunately inevitable (we certainly can't ship Debian entirely
without an init system, so a choice had to be made). The controversy
surrounding Unteralterbach, on the other hand, is non-technical in
nature and can simply be avoided by not uploading it and distributing
it as part of Debian.
I'd like to re-iterate my earlier message about this issue [1], and
especially Russ' reply, which expresses my stance a lot better than
anything I could write up myself.
To quote Russ:
"I think it would be great to have other packages of the same software type
but with different content in Debian. Just not this particular content
profile, which should be handled by people who know what they're getting
into, can focus on this specific type of collision between free speech and
other social issues, and don't have other goals that would be put at risk
by getting into the middle of this fight.
The above is written very carefully to try to avoid expressing any opinion
about the merits of the content itself. Please don't try to read an
opinion on that into the above."
My objection against Unteralterbach's content is (...what's the right
verb here? Complimented? Exacerbated? (Perhaps somewhat)
overshadowed?) by the concern that Russ shares above, i.e. that Debian
is not the right platform to deliver Unteralterbach's view on the
social and moral issues at play in Unteralterbach.
> The reason I'm considering to sponsor the package is simple: I think
> Nils could be an asset to the project (I haven't seen his technical
> skills, but I like his social skills). If he wants to package
> something, and I don't see any problem in it entering Debian, I'm
> pleased to help him with that.
To be clear, I have no objection against Nils' involvement in Debian.
I'm all for encouraging newcomers to contribute to Debian and make it
a better platform for everyone; I regularly spend my time mentoring
and sponsoring packages on debian-mentors, so those are not just empty
words. My objections are entirely against the software that Nils would
like to package, Unteralterbach.
> But of course, if I hear good arguments to keep this package from
> Debian, I'll change my mind. I'm pretty sure ftpmasters can also be
> convinced to reject it with good arguments, just in case I'm the crazy
> guy here who doesn't see the obvious.
See the first part of my reply. I don't expect you to agree with it,
of course. That's precisely one of the things that worries me about
Unteralterbach, as is with systemd; no consensus will ever be agreed
upon that satisfies everyone.
> On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 05:31:01PM -0700, Vincent Cheng wrote:
>> > I'll try hard to make sure nobody is surprised if the package enters
>> > Debian (but I'm also pretty sure not everybody will be happy,
>> > judging by the discussion.)
>>
>> By "try[ing] hard to make sure nobody is surprised if the package
>> enters Debian", I assume that you'll mention it to -devel and -project
>> the moment you upload it to the NEW queue
>
> I wasn't planning to. This discussion has been spread over
> debian-devel-games, debian-legal, debian-women and leader. I think it
> makes sense to inform all of those places. I see no need to tell the
> developers at large that there is a new package in the queue.
Ack. I see things differently.
>> (debian-devel-games has nowhere near the number of subscribers that
>> -devel and -project have, after all);
>
> If you want coverage, you need to send it to the newspapers and
> tv-stations. I'm pretty sure they aren't interested. I'm guessing
> neither are most of the readers of -devel and -project.
>
>> I'll do so myself if you refuse.
>
> "Refuse"? You mean you're giving me an order? I'm going to assume this
> is just a language problem, and ignore that.
"Refuse" was probably the wrong word. I simply meant that if you
weren't going to do it ("it" = inform DDs at large on -devel and
-project when you upload Unteralterbach), I'd do so myself. Sorry for
the misunderstanding.
> Anyway, I'm not stopping you. If you want to tell people about things
> they don't care about, knock yourself out...
I think you're underestimating the amount of controversy that this
will generate, just amongst the DD community.
Regards,
Vincent
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