Re: Steam for Linux? No thanks.
Hi Dmitry,
Alright, so I think I've identified the crux of your argument, and
I'll try to address your confusion as to why everyone isn't agreeing
with everything you said.
On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 12:20 AM, Dmitry Smirnov <onlyjob@member.fsf.org> wrote:
[...]
> I think pretty much everyone would agree that DRM is not a nice thing.
> I object to Steam because it is promoting DRM and all wrongs associated with
> DRM. I'm surprised that in our community there are some who fail to recognise
> that.
I'm fairly sure that we can agree with "DRM is not a nice thing".
But...
> Our policy do not prohibit DRM and I don't want to search for loop holes to
> block Steam for unrelated reason.
You seem to think that because something promotes DRM, that it should
be excluded from Debian. This is where opinions differ. I, for one,
certainly don't think that software with DRM should automatically be
excluded from Debian non-free.
I'm sorry, but I simply don't share your viewpoint here. As much as I
dislike DRM, I recognize that a number of companies and/or individuals
consider DRM to be a necessity in protecting their assets, and I can
respect that.
Yes, Policy has nothing explicitly prohibiting DRM. I don't think
that's a coincidence. I'm sure you'll soon come to realize that not
everyone is interested in pursuing such an agressive anti-DRM stance
as you are right now.
> Project-wise we're trying to work with FSF on their assessment of
> Debian Free-ness. Non-free is a big topic on the list. Despite infamous
> disclaimer FSF and our users are definitely associate non-free with Debian and
> that fact affects their judgement.
FWIW, I personally don't care at all whether the FSF thinks Debian is
free, non-free, or somewhere in the middle. I really don't. I consider
our Policy and Social Contract to be our guiding policy statements on
the free-ness of Debian, not the opinions of a bunch of people at the
FSF.
"Project-wise" is a bit of an overstatement. Of the 1000+ DDs we have
in Debian, and thousands of other non-DD contributors, I see
relatively few people working directly with FSF to make Debian more
compliant with FSF's outlook of free-ness. Again, I don't think that's
a coincidence.
> I don't see how uploading Steam can help Debian and FSF communication. I can
> easily recognise potential for harm coming directly from Steam upload.
Again, I don't give a rat's ass about what the FSF thinks of Debian's
free-ness, so this does nothing to convince me that the upload of
Steam packages is harming Debian.
> Again, we don't need Steam and it can be harmful not only for our user's
> freedom but also to our project in general. Pros and cons seem to be obvious
> -- there is no harm from absence of Steam in non-free. There might be negative
> consequences from Steam upload to non-free. Is there are any good from Steam
> upload? Hardly any... Do we need anything else beyond common sense to
> understand it?
Again, I still can't see why uploading Steam to Debian non-free is
going to be harmful for Debian. If your primary concern is that it'll
alienate FSF supporters from Debian, then I don't share your concerns.
> I think there are more than just policy to be considered before upload.
> Merely compliance with Policy can be a poor basis for decision making.
Policy is the only thing that we can _all_ agree on, therefore it is
what we should be using to make decisions when there's no clear
consensus amongst developers. If you want anyone to subscribe to your
opinions/perspectives on anything not spelled out in Policy, it's an
uphill battle.
> Is Steam upload benefits Debian in any way? I doubt that...
There's demand for end-users of Debian for easy-to-install Steam
packages. I consider that good enough as a reason to upload Steam to
Debian non-free, providing that there are no valid arguments against
doing so (by "valid", I mean something originating in Policy, i.e. on
the topic of licensing, re-distributability, patents, etc.).
Regards,
Vincent
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