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Re: Steam for Linux? No thanks.

* Dmitry Smirnov <onlyjob@member.fsf.org> [2013-02-23 13:40:30 CET]:
> On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 20:46:29 Gerfried Fuchs wrote:
> >  I'm sorry, but claiming others are immune to arguments when you
> > (intentionally?) ignore the requests to base your statement that steam
> > is "all about DRM" with something useful, I fail to see your arguments
> > at all.
> Do you want me to explain how/why DRM is bad? There are enough information 
> about it out there.
> Do you want facts that Steam and DRM are "married"? It is also quite clear.

 "quite clear" it is not.  Even your self writes later in this very
mail that steam is <quote>providing easy access to non-free potentially
DRM encumbered content</quote>.  If it would be married, it wouldn't be
potential but exclusive.  Web browsers, torrent clients and other
downloaders are also providing easy access to non-free potentially DRM
encumbered content.

> Then what kind of facts do you expect? 

 One that doesn't go with "quite clear" and leaves the after taste of
"you are all too dumb to see it" without any pointer where to see it.

> > It has been shown that there are games on steam that are *not*
> > DRM encumbered, and steam itself doesn't force it onto games distributed
> > through it, so your sole "argument" is unfortunately moot.
> Unfortunately if some Steam-distributed games are not DRM encumbered (yet?) 
> it's not enough to outweigh the cons.

 Given that DRM seems to be your own argument, it does outweigh that

> Besides is there a guarantee that DRM will not be enforced later when
> games gain enough popularity?

 No, and it can be pulled again from the pool at any time.

 Also, is there a guarantee that the FSF will not change a future
version of the GPL in a way that we don't like?  Think back of the
discussions that happened because of the wording of GPL v3 in the
initial state.  Noone can know the future, and a hypothetical future
shouldn't influence the here and now.

 Games have always had enough popularity, by the ways.

> Would it be legal to re-distribute games without Steam?

 When I think of humblebundle, I see a lot of games that are distributed
both through stream and outside of steam.  Again, what might or might
not change in the future lies in the future.

> Isn't badness of such game distribution system is obvious?

 Again a "you are too dumb to see it" sentence?  Really?

> >  You might feel you hare mistreated here, but accusing others of
> > ignorance when you don't give us your facts is not buying you any
> > respect for your cause.
> I fail to see what kind of "facts" you expect...

 One that doesn't read "is obvious" or "quite clear", because seemingly,
it is neither obvious or clear, otherwise we wouldn't have this
discussion, at all.

> > > Is Steam upload benefits Debian in any way? I doubt that...
> > 
> >  There are people who think otherwise.  Please respect that.
> I'm trying to respect, but so far the only argument for Steam that was 
> expressed here is that it may help us to attract more users (or satisfy their 
> "demands").

 People will use steam, no matter how much you like it or not.  Legal
reasoning doesn't block non-free from distributing it, and if someone is
willing to invest their time into it, they have my blessing.  I am not
so arrogant to "demand" from others that they aren't allowed to do what
they ... actually _are_ allowed to do.

> I would argue that even if popularity is a goal we've never tried to gain it 
> by providing easy access to non-free and potentially DRM encumbered content.
> That wouldn't be our goal in any way. Promoting DRM and non-free is not our 
> job.

 Right, and I don't see it as promoting DRM, or promoting non-free.  It
won't be on our CD/DVD images, for a very big starter, and non-free
isn't enabled by default through the installer.

> Without the above argument I think supporters of Steam are left with nothing 
> but their willingness to bring Steam despite all concerns. (They are of course 
> free to do that as long as their work is policy compliant).

 I've seen only "potential" concerns, and you start to argue with a
future that isn't written yet.

> I think this thread have enough criticism of my argumentation but very little  
> reasoning and support for Steam uploading.

 Yes indeed, it has enough criticism of your argumentation, repeated
again and again without any further input.

> Instead of demands for strong case against Steam I would like to hear if you 
> have anything to support the cause. Why some want Steam in Debian? What for? 
> What good can come out of it?

 What good can come out of anything if we don't even try?

 So long,
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