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Re: Timeline for official Debian cloud images for the Stretch release

Hi Richard,

here are quick answers, but I will then run out of time and I am not sure
to be able to continue the discussion on that pace in the next few days
(which may be a good thing).

Le Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 08:48:22AM -0700, Richard Hartmann a écrit :
> all teams are well within their delegations. If the DPL had felt that
> to not be the case, I am sure he would have updated them accordingly
> or created a new one.

I will not second guess the wills of the DPL, and anyway, a new DPL will be
elected very soon.  If you think that formal management is necessary (and I do
not), can you ask him for setting up a delegation ?  If not, can the trademark
team refrain from nominating managers ?

> Our main concern is that we need a way to protect our users from
> unexpected behavior in a somewhat automated and scalable manner, and
> keep those results and their records out in the open.

The usual way is to report issues, open bugs on the BTS, and work on a
solution.  Sorry, but here I see at worse fears, uncertainty and doubt, or at
best ambitions to have a more unified system, but no concrete problem or
complains.  You are using a very heavy hammer, without having participating to
problem reporting and problem solving before on this mailing list.  And
ambitions are great but somebody's ambitions should not become somebody else's

> Your main concern seems to be that you will be forced to conform to an
> arbitrary rule-set enforced top-down.

My main concern is that what is being done is a strong departure from what I
felt is a core Debian value: the principle that the one who does should usually
be the one who decides.

> As a specific proposal in light of your concern, might I suggest you
> simply join the discussion about the test set?

Sure.  Unless I am mistaken, it has not started, isn't it ?

There are also discussions that did not yet lead to a conclusion, in particular
on the use of cloud-init backports.  I am not happy to see people comming out
of the blue and informing us that they self-appointed as decision makers on
issues that include whether we can use a backport or not.  We have been doing
this for a while, and if people have a different opinion on what should be
done, the best way forward is to step in the maintainance of the cloud-init
package (in coordination with Ubuntu, which is our Upstream here), and work out
how to get Stable updates, etc.

To summarise it with a strong image, you come to a discussion with a gun, and
after aiming at peoples heads, you say "let's do some great work together".  If
you are interested in the cloud images, can't you participate as a regular
developer, rather than as a person who has the power to pull out the plug from
other people's projects ?  I feel that we are treated as potentially dangerous
contributors who need to be controlled to prevent some mess to happen and
damage Debian's name.  This is highly demotivational.


Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan

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