On Thu, 2002-06-13 at 11:12, Mantas K. wrote: > Hi again, > > It seemed to me that you wanted to write this letter to mailing list (from > few questions you asked), but you had sent it just to me ;) Yes, you absolutely right. I'll Cc: it onto the list now, and leave the previous message attached below (which for the people on the list, is a belated response to Mantas' question about promoting newbie packages). > If there are some packages, that are important to newbies and are in no task > (and not marked as standard) and so newbies will only see them once they've > stopped being newbies, then we really have to do something to ease their fate :) Agreed, but I'm not sure what we can do at this stage. Unfortunately, it may have to wait for 3.0_r1, but if someone can suggest a way of slipping it into 3.0 I'd like to hear about it. > I'm not a debian developer, so I can't really say which way is the best - > maybe we can: > 1. mark part of my mentioned packages (like discover, etherconf, why in 1st > CD are only pppoeconf and pppconfig?) as standard; I think that would inflict them on people that are upgrading, and don't need them, so is probably not the way to go. > 2. include some (like aptitude, kudzu, sndconfig) in a task > "simple-installation" or some such; > 3. and include some (ex. graphical configuration tools, developed by > Progeny, graphical package manager - stormpkg) in task-desktop. > > At last, we can make a new task, called task-newbie :) > > Mantas Kriauciunas > > P.S. popularity-contest package is not included in any task and only few > advanced debian users know about this package (there are no information > about it, see ex. http://search.debian.org/) and this package is not easy to > configure - sendmail often isn't correctly configured in some systems, > because newbies use Kmail, Evolution, Balsa, etc. - thats why I say data, > produced by popularity-contest is not reliable. Fair enough --- perhaps popularity-contest should be made standard? Cheers, Phil. > ----------------------------your letter----------------------------------- > On Fri, 2002-05-31 at 13:11, Mantas K. wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I still think, that including some packages on 1st CD (which use just little > > space) would improve much debian woody installation from CDs. > > I got no answer to my suggestions about improving 1st debian CD and desktop > > task from official maintainer :( > > Yeah, sorry for the slow response, I've not had much time for anything > other than occasional attempts to knock bugs out of the still > non-building architectures, so had not got round to looking into this. > > As for your point about including more "easy install" packages on CD#1, > I agree in principle, but: > > If I include all the packages you mention, what is going to cause them > to be installed? If they were marked as standard, or if they were all > in a task "simple-installation" or some such, then they might well get > installed, but if either of those were the case the packages would > probably already be on CD#1 so we wouldn't be talking about it. > > As for your point about popularity-contest being a poor criterion, it's > the only one we've got, and people that are unhappy with the result need > to install popularity-contest so that their opinion gets a vote. > > I agree that that doesn't work for people that have no internet > connection whatsoever, but they are going to want a full set of CDs > anyway, so the order the packages appear on those CDs is largely > immaterial. > > So, to try and be constructive, does anyone have any suggestions on how > to not only get these packages onto CD#1, but also get them installed > for newbie users so that there is some point in doing so? > > ... > > aptitude - ~1MB, discover - ~150kb, etherconf - ~20kb) are not in 1st CD. > > AFAICS all of these are optional, and are in no task, so I'm guessing > that a newbie will only see them once they've stopped being a newbie. > > Suggestions on how to address this anyone? > > Cheers, Phil. > > > > > How can simple user use debian if there are no packages, that configures > > harware and network and no usable package managment tools (dselect and > > command line is too hard for beginers) ? > > > > All distributions include hardware autodetection and configuration packages > > in 1st CD, why debian should be less user-friendly, than others ? > > Installation of debian woody already is not so simle, but now it is even > > more difficult, because there are no hardware autodetection package, no > > network configuration and no usefull package managment program in 1st CD :( > > > > I found that many not so usefull packages are included in 1st CD, like: > > +Debian:pool/main/p/penguineyes/penguineyes-gnome_0.10-22_i386.deb (244 kb) > > +Debian:pool/main/p/penguineyes/penguineyes_0.10-22_i386.deb (238 kb) > > > > Do you think that users like to see penguineyes instead of working operating > > system ? > > > > Santiago Vila <sanvila@unex.es> wrote: > > > The current CDs are made basically using the data produced by the > > > popularity-contest package. Debian is for everybody, not just for > > > beginners. If package A is more popular than package B, then A is more > > > likely to be included in CD#1, even if it's less user-friendly than B. > > > > > > In my opinion this principle is basically right and should not be changed. > > > > Data, produced by popularity-contest is not reliable, because only few > > percent of debian users uses popularity-contest package. > > I know no simple users, that uses popularity-contest package and only few > > avanced users. And data, produced by popularity-contest are only about > > systems, connected to internet, but CD is most usefull to users, that have > > no internet connection. > > We need better system, to hear not only advanced users oppinion but other > > users too. > > Most simple users don't like debian, because they think, that there are not > > user-friendly configuration tools (they simply download 1 CD, try to install > > and find that they are rigth). But if we include some tools (packages which > > I mentioned before and some graphical configuration tools, like stormpkg > > (~100 kb), user-friendly graphical configuration tools, developed by > > Progeny: python-configlet (35kb), configlet-frontends (20kb), timezoneconf > > (30kb), localeconf (20kb) and maybe some more hardware detection packages: > > kudzu, sndconfig) people would see that debian is not so difficult to use. > > (see for example Progeny Debian - is very user-friendly for all - beginners > > and advanced users) > > > > Waiting for changes ;), > > Mantas Kriauciunas <monte@mail.lt> > > > > > > -- > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-cd-request@lists.debian.org > > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact > listmaster@lists.debian.org > > > -- Say no to software patents! http://petition.eurolinux.org/ |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] http://www.hands.com/ |-| HANDS.COM Ltd. http://www.uk.debian.org/ |(| 10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London E18 1NE ENGLAND
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