[Date Prev][Date Next] [Thread Prev][Thread Next] [Date Index] [Thread Index]

Re: About harware detection and configuration tools in 1st CD

On Thu, 2002-06-13 at 11:12, Mantas K. wrote:
> Hi again,
> It seemed to me that you wanted to write this letter to mailing list (from
> few questions you asked), but you had sent it just to me ;)

Yes, you absolutely right.  I'll Cc: it onto the list now, and leave the
previous message attached below (which for the people on the list, is a
belated response to Mantas' question about promoting newbie packages).

> If there are some packages, that are important to newbies and are in no task
> (and not marked as standard) and so newbies will only see them once they've
> stopped being newbies, then we really have to do something to ease their fate :)

Agreed, but I'm not sure what we can do at this stage.  Unfortunately,
it may have to wait for 3.0_r1, but if someone can suggest a way of
slipping it into 3.0 I'd like to hear about it.

> I'm not a debian developer, so I can't really say which way is the best -
> maybe we can:
> 1. mark part of my mentioned packages (like discover, etherconf, why in 1st
> CD are only pppoeconf and pppconfig?) as standard;

I think that would inflict them on people that are upgrading, and don't
need them, so is probably not the way to go.

> 2. include some (like aptitude, kudzu, sndconfig) in a task
> "simple-installation" or some such;
> 3. and include some (ex. graphical configuration tools, developed by
> Progeny, graphical package manager - stormpkg) in task-desktop.
> At last, we can make a new task, called task-newbie :)
> Mantas Kriauciunas
> P.S. popularity-contest package is not included in any task and only few
> advanced debian users know about this package (there are no information
> about it, see ex. http://search.debian.org/) and this package is not easy to
> configure - sendmail often isn't correctly configured in some systems,
> because newbies use Kmail, Evolution, Balsa, etc. - thats why I say data,
> produced by popularity-contest is not reliable.

Fair enough --- perhaps popularity-contest should be made standard?

Cheers, Phil.

> ----------------------------your letter-----------------------------------
> On Fri, 2002-05-31 at 13:11, Mantas K. wrote:
>   > Hello,
>   >
>   > I still think, that including some packages on 1st CD (which use just little
>   > space) would improve much debian woody installation from CDs.
>   > I got no answer to my suggestions about improving 1st debian CD and desktop
>   > task from official maintainer :(
> Yeah, sorry for the slow response, I've not had much time for anything
> other than occasional attempts to knock bugs out of the still
> non-building architectures, so had not got round to looking into this.
> As for your point about including more "easy install" packages on CD#1,
> I agree in principle, but:
> If I include all the packages you mention, what is going to cause them
> to be installed?  If they were marked as standard, or if they were all
> in a task "simple-installation" or some such, then they might well get
> installed, but if either of those were the case the packages would
> probably already be on CD#1 so we wouldn't be talking about it.
> As for your point about popularity-contest being a poor criterion, it's
> the only one we've got, and people that are unhappy with the result need
> to install popularity-contest so that their opinion gets a vote.
> I agree that that doesn't work for people that have no internet
> connection whatsoever, but they are going to want a full set of CDs
> anyway, so the order the packages appear on those CDs is largely
> immaterial.
> So, to try and be constructive, does anyone have any suggestions on how
> to not only get these packages onto CD#1, but also get them installed
> for newbie users so that there is some point in doing so?
> ...
>   > aptitude - ~1MB, discover - ~150kb, etherconf - ~20kb) are not in 1st CD.
> AFAICS all of these are optional, and are in no task, so I'm guessing
> that a newbie will only see them once they've stopped being a newbie.
> Suggestions on how to address this anyone?
> Cheers, Phil.
>   >
>   > How can simple user use debian if there are no packages, that configures
>   > harware and network and no usable package managment tools (dselect and
>   > command line is too hard for beginers) ?
>   >
>   > All distributions include hardware autodetection and configuration packages
>   > in 1st CD, why debian should be less user-friendly, than others ?
>   > Installation of debian woody already is not so simle, but now it is even
>   > more difficult, because there are no hardware autodetection package, no
>   > network configuration and no usefull package managment program in 1st CD :(
>   >
>   > I found that many not so usefull packages are included in 1st CD, like:
>   > +Debian:pool/main/p/penguineyes/penguineyes-gnome_0.10-22_i386.deb (244 kb)
>   > +Debian:pool/main/p/penguineyes/penguineyes_0.10-22_i386.deb (238 kb)
>   >
>   > Do you think that users like to see penguineyes instead of working operating
>   > system ?
>   >
>   > Santiago Vila <sanvila@unex.es> wrote:
>   > > The current CDs are made basically using the data produced by the
>   > > popularity-contest package. Debian is for everybody, not just for
>   > > beginners. If package A is more popular than package B, then A is more
>   > > likely to be included in CD#1, even if it's less user-friendly than B.
>   > >
>   > > In my opinion this principle is basically right and should not be changed.
>   >
>   > Data, produced by popularity-contest is not reliable, because only few
>   > percent of debian users uses popularity-contest package.
>   > I know no simple users, that uses popularity-contest package and only few
>   > avanced users. And data, produced by popularity-contest are only about
>   > systems, connected to internet, but CD is most usefull to users, that have
>   > no internet connection.
>   > We need better system, to hear not only advanced users oppinion but other
>   > users too.
>   > Most simple users don't like debian, because they think, that there are not
>   > user-friendly configuration tools (they simply download 1 CD, try to install
>   > and find that they are rigth). But if we include some tools (packages which
>   > I mentioned before and some graphical configuration tools, like stormpkg
>   > (~100 kb), user-friendly graphical configuration tools, developed by
>   > Progeny: python-configlet (35kb), configlet-frontends (20kb), timezoneconf
>   > (30kb), localeconf (20kb) and maybe some more hardware detection packages:
>   > kudzu, sndconfig) people would see that debian is not so difficult to use.
>   > (see for example Progeny Debian - is very user-friendly for all - beginners
>   > and advanced users)
>   >
>   > Waiting for changes ;),
>   > Mantas Kriauciunas <monte@mail.lt>
>   >
>   >
>   > --
>   > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-cd-request@lists.debian.org
>   > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact 
> listmaster@lists.debian.org
>   >
Say no to software patents!  http://petition.eurolinux.org/

|)|  Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]    http://www.hands.com/
|-|  HANDS.COM Ltd.                    http://www.uk.debian.org/
|(|  10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London  E18 1NE  ENGLAND

Attachment: signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Reply to: