Re: About harware detection and configuration tools in 1st CD
Sorry I have not replied to the original. My time has been taken up with
trying to get the latest boot-floppies to install the Hurd.
IMHO, it is too late to do much about woody, but it should be high on the
agenda for woody+1.
Phil. (The other one, 20,000 km away).
On 14 Jun 2002, Philip Hands wrote:
> On Thu, 2002-06-13 at 11:12, Mantas K. wrote:
> > Hi again,
> > It seemed to me that you wanted to write this letter to mailing list (from
> > few questions you asked), but you had sent it just to me ;)
> Yes, you absolutely right. I'll Cc: it onto the list now, and leave the
> previous message attached below (which for the people on the list, is a
> belated response to Mantas' question about promoting newbie packages).
> > If there are some packages, that are important to newbies and are in no task
> > (and not marked as standard) and so newbies will only see them once they've
> > stopped being newbies, then we really have to do something to ease their fate :)
> Agreed, but I'm not sure what we can do at this stage. Unfortunately,
> it may have to wait for 3.0_r1, but if someone can suggest a way of
> slipping it into 3.0 I'd like to hear about it.
> > I'm not a debian developer, so I can't really say which way is the best -
> > maybe we can:
> > 1. mark part of my mentioned packages (like discover, etherconf, why in 1st
> > CD are only pppoeconf and pppconfig?) as standard;
> I think that would inflict them on people that are upgrading, and don't
> need them, so is probably not the way to go.
> > 2. include some (like aptitude, kudzu, sndconfig) in a task
> > "simple-installation" or some such;
> > 3. and include some (ex. graphical configuration tools, developed by
> > Progeny, graphical package manager - stormpkg) in task-desktop.
> > At last, we can make a new task, called task-newbie :)
> > Mantas Kriauciunas
> > P.S. popularity-contest package is not included in any task and only few
> > advanced debian users know about this package (there are no information
> > about it, see ex. http://search.debian.org/) and this package is not easy to
> > configure - sendmail often isn't correctly configured in some systems,
> > because newbies use Kmail, Evolution, Balsa, etc. - thats why I say data,
> > produced by popularity-contest is not reliable.
> Fair enough --- perhaps popularity-contest should be made standard?
> Cheers, Phil.
> > ----------------------------your letter-----------------------------------
> > On Fri, 2002-05-31 at 13:11, Mantas K. wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > I still think, that including some packages on 1st CD (which use just little
> > > space) would improve much debian woody installation from CDs.
> > > I got no answer to my suggestions about improving 1st debian CD and desktop
> > > task from official maintainer :(
> > Yeah, sorry for the slow response, I've not had much time for anything
> > other than occasional attempts to knock bugs out of the still
> > non-building architectures, so had not got round to looking into this.
> > As for your point about including more "easy install" packages on CD#1,
> > I agree in principle, but:
> > If I include all the packages you mention, what is going to cause them
> > to be installed? If they were marked as standard, or if they were all
> > in a task "simple-installation" or some such, then they might well get
> > installed, but if either of those were the case the packages would
> > probably already be on CD#1 so we wouldn't be talking about it.
> > As for your point about popularity-contest being a poor criterion, it's
> > the only one we've got, and people that are unhappy with the result need
> > to install popularity-contest so that their opinion gets a vote.
> > I agree that that doesn't work for people that have no internet
> > connection whatsoever, but they are going to want a full set of CDs
> > anyway, so the order the packages appear on those CDs is largely
> > immaterial.
> > So, to try and be constructive, does anyone have any suggestions on how
> > to not only get these packages onto CD#1, but also get them installed
> > for newbie users so that there is some point in doing so?
> > ...
> > > aptitude - ~1MB, discover - ~150kb, etherconf - ~20kb) are not in 1st CD.
> > AFAICS all of these are optional, and are in no task, so I'm guessing
> > that a newbie will only see them once they've stopped being a newbie.
> > Suggestions on how to address this anyone?
> > Cheers, Phil.
> > >
> > > How can simple user use debian if there are no packages, that configures
> > > harware and network and no usable package managment tools (dselect and
> > > command line is too hard for beginers) ?
> > >
> > > All distributions include hardware autodetection and configuration packages
> > > in 1st CD, why debian should be less user-friendly, than others ?
> > > Installation of debian woody already is not so simle, but now it is even
> > > more difficult, because there are no hardware autodetection package, no
> > > network configuration and no usefull package managment program in 1st CD :(
> > >
> > > I found that many not so usefull packages are included in 1st CD, like:
> > > +Debian:pool/main/p/penguineyes/penguineyes-gnome_0.10-22_i386.deb (244 kb)
> > > +Debian:pool/main/p/penguineyes/penguineyes_0.10-22_i386.deb (238 kb)
> > >
> > > Do you think that users like to see penguineyes instead of working operating
> > > system ?
> > >
> > > Santiago Vila <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
> > > > The current CDs are made basically using the data produced by the
> > > > popularity-contest package. Debian is for everybody, not just for
> > > > beginners. If package A is more popular than package B, then A is more
> > > > likely to be included in CD#1, even if it's less user-friendly than B.
> > > >
> > > > In my opinion this principle is basically right and should not be changed.
> > >
> > > Data, produced by popularity-contest is not reliable, because only few
> > > percent of debian users uses popularity-contest package.
> > > I know no simple users, that uses popularity-contest package and only few
> > > avanced users. And data, produced by popularity-contest are only about
> > > systems, connected to internet, but CD is most usefull to users, that have
> > > no internet connection.
> > > We need better system, to hear not only advanced users oppinion but other
> > > users too.
> > > Most simple users don't like debian, because they think, that there are not
> > > user-friendly configuration tools (they simply download 1 CD, try to install
> > > and find that they are rigth). But if we include some tools (packages which
> > > I mentioned before and some graphical configuration tools, like stormpkg
> > > (~100 kb), user-friendly graphical configuration tools, developed by
> > > Progeny: python-configlet (35kb), configlet-frontends (20kb), timezoneconf
> > > (30kb), localeconf (20kb) and maybe some more hardware detection packages:
> > > kudzu, sndconfig) people would see that debian is not so difficult to use.
> > > (see for example Progeny Debian - is very user-friendly for all - beginners
> > > and advanced users)
> > >
> > > Waiting for changes ;),
> > > Mantas Kriauciunas <email@example.com>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
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> > >
> Say no to software patents! http://petition.eurolinux.org/
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