Re: This is getting ridiculous ...
On Fri, Jun 16, 2006 at 01:37:48AM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 15, 2006 at 09:22:18PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > > Gaining back the confidence would have been a very long process and
>
> > A very long process ? This is clearly the ridiculous part. And what is frans
> > going to do to regain my confidence ?
>
> Your comments throughout this painful (for everybody concerned) process have
> made it clear that you regard your relationship with Frans to be a symmetric
Yeah, since i believe that all DDs are supposed to be equal, differentiated
only in the quality and quantity of their technical contributions.
> one. But it's just as clear to me that this is not the case: it's true
> that you are both Debian Developers, so in a general sense you are equals,
> but *as concerns access to the debian-installer repository*, he is a
> recognized admin of the d-i group on alioth and the recognized release
> manager of d-i for etch, which means deciding who does or doesn't get access
> to the d-i repo is within his area of normal authority -- not yours.
So, it is acceptable that he misuses his d-i alioth project admin rights, not
to for the best of debian or even d-i, but to grind his private axe with me ?
There is *NO* technical reason which warrant his action, and the only reason
he does it is to humiliate and punish me. This is not how debian should work,
and this i believe is enough for the DPL to have taken a more active part in
resolving this problem, or that Frans control over the d-i alioth accounts be
removed, and entrusted to someone's neutral, which will not misuse it for
private vengeance. He has absolutely no need of it to perform his d-i
leadership work.
> You seem to think this is unimportant. I do not; I think this is the basic
> reason why the DPL has suggested the solution that he has and why the TC has
> refused to overrule any of these decisions, because we don't have to agree
> that Frans's decision was right, we only have to agree that it was a
> *reasonable* decision for him to make. Yes, it is reasonable for a project
> admin to remove the commit access of someone he feels he can't work with,
> even if that someone is a long-time committer.
And, how long will it last ? how long will frans reject any effort i make, and
spring about the most minor of comments ?
What good does it bring ? The only result is that the issue will never be
solved until Frans whim is satisfied, and we will have this same flamewar each
now and then.
> If you can't accept this basic fact that giving and taking commit access to
> the repository is the decision of the project admins to make, *in their own
> time*, and focus instead on the work that can be done, then sure, I don't
If it was a decision which was backed with a technical reason, i would admit,
but like it is, it is based on no such technical reason, and only does hurt to
the project, and thus, no, Frans should be overruled in this.
> expect you to regain any trust in Frans; and I don't expect relations to
> improve much or for you to get commit access restored any time in the
> foreseeable future.
No, i don't need to regain Frans's thrust, i will never get it, and even if i
make the best of effort, Frans will again misinterpret the minor slight or
comment on my part, and all effort on my part will be lost.
And the longer this issue lingers unsolved, the worse it becomes. And i think
that it is not correct to ask me to be submissive and everything forever just
so Frans doesn't leash on me. You would not accept this, there is enough
people throwing insults at me on irc, or engaging in random stuborn flamewars
in debian, that there is no right for you or anyone to suggest that i should
be submitted to it.
> > > that commit access which you seem to put a huge importance on would
> > > certainly have come back.....certainly late (I would say after Etch
> > > release).
>
> > Why ? It is a hindrance in me doing d-i work, and serves no other purpose than
> > to humiliate me, so i am thaught not to misbehave in the future.
>
> I don't think the latest comment Frans made to you on IRC was appropriate,
> but I do think it's true. Your reinstatement to the team does depend on the
> project admins feeling that they can work with you. You may have meant your
> comments as a joke, but it doesn't surprise me that such a joke is not well
And you don't care the littlest how the current situation is received by me,
and how i have to take care about the slighest thing i say, while it is
perfectly ok for Frans to speak to me in this superior tone he has been using.
This doesn't benefit debian, this doesn't benefit the debian-installer, this
doesn't help to solve the issue, excet with me going and leaving both d-i and
debian forever.
> received. This thread isn't a joke, nor are any of the others we've had
> about this matter. They're also pretty clear indicators that, rather than
> following AJ's advice on how to move forward, you're seeking to undermine --
> or override -- Frans's authority. If no one has come to your rescue by now,
> what do you think *this* thread will accomplish for you? All I see it doing
> is further demonstrating that you are not willing to work within the team
> structure that exists.
What authority does Frans have ? he is a developer as anyone else, he may have
the technical lead on d-i, which gives him right to take decisions on
technical issues, but this does not give him the right to any kind of
authority over me in the social side of it, nor any authority on what i have
the right or not to write on list.
If he makes a stupid mistake in something he says on list, i have the right,
like everyone else, to tell it to him, and sorry, but there is no rule in
debian about being nice on mailing lists, just see the various flamewars, and
the mess which happened in mexico.
So, does this mean, that i have to be a sub-DD, to be Frans slave and
dependent on his every whim ?
> > > The trust between you and Frans has been lost. And Frans is the team
> > > boss (by general agreement of the D-I team). In real life, when the
> > > trust is broken between a manager and his employees, a usual
> > > recommendation to both parties is to stick with factual work and do
> > > the best possible to avoid putting back personal relationship
> > > problems.
>
> > But in real life, if he had acted such as my boss in these conditions, i
> > would have sued him for moral harcelement, and he would have lost. I guess
> > even in the US this would have passed
>
> I have no idea what you're trying to say with "moral harcelement", but no,
> you're very sadly mistaken.
Maybe. That said, in real life, if someone would have an authority over me
like the one i mention, i strongly expect to be paid for the job done. Since
this is not the case, any such real-life comparisons are void.
> > > Up to now, we have tried hard with the first solution which, honestly,
> > > could work if you don't bring back your old griefs all time long.
>
> > No, and i will tell you why. There is a social conflict, and the current
> > situation is such that all the blame for it is on me, and Frans is the
> > innocent party who suffered and should be avenged by punishing me.
>
> AFAICT, Frans's fault in this matter is that you make him angry.
Ah, yes. And do you not think he makes me angry ? Is it my fault if he is
incapable of mastering his temper ? Then if this is the case, i want to ask
you what it is that is reproached to me after all ?
Two weights, two mesures ?
> How do you expect any of us to judge him for this when so many of us have
> the same flaw?
But it is perfectly ok to judge me, right ?
You see, this is exactly why this will not be solved so long as things
continue as is.
Please do everyone a service, and let's solve this issue, and clearly state
that using technical powers as weapons in social disputes is an abuse of those
technical powers, in the same way as misuse of debian infrastructure would be.
Hurt,
Sven Luther
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