Re: [Debconf-team] [DC14] Portland team: DebConf in the USA
On Sun, 2013-03-17 at 08:53 +0100, Daniel Pocock wrote:
> On 17/03/13 01:30, Steve Langasek wrote:
> > Hi Gunnar,
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 07:26:26PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> >> And as the mails I just sent, some salient questions for you:
> >
> >> USA, the eternal debate
> >> =======================
> >
> >> First, there's the obvious issue of going to the USA. Several European
> >> DebConf usual attendees voiced their opposition (and some didn't
> >> travel) to DebConf10, and several non-first-world will probably have a
> >> hard time getting the visa.
> >
> > Thanks for giving us the opportunity to address this question.
> >
> > I am aware that there are Europeans involved in Debian who were
> > conscientious objectors to DC10 being held in the US; and I applaud their
>
> My comments were not in the context of `conscientious objector' - I just
> thought the coverage of this issue in the bid needed to be beefed up a
> little bit, if for no other reason than to show respect for those who
> would be unable to attend
>
> > opposition to modern oppressive travel regimes and respect their personal
> > choice to not travel to conferences in the US. However, making this a
> > DebConf-level issue is a deplorable double-standard:
> >
> > - Governments and airlines of EU nations are complicit in the enforcement
> > of the US's invasive security rules.
> > - The EU is not more friendly to visitors from (arbitrary) developing
> > countries than the US is.
>
>
> Looking at the stats:
>
> - 37 countries are in the US Visa Waiver Program
>
> - 72 countries (27 EU countries + 4 EEA countries + 41 `Annex II'
> countries) have visa-free EU travel:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_in_the_European_Union#Visa_exemptions
>
> and the EU policy automatically extends to family members regardless of
> birthplace. In contrast, US policy is to assume that family members
> (with a US resident spouse or parent) are `conspiring' to migrate
> `illegally':
> http://blogs.usembassy.gov/philippines/?p=401
>
> I've heard of cases where X has a US residence permit, and so X's
> son/daughter is almost automatically denied a visitor visa.
>
> My comments were only to demonstrate a contrast - there are countries
> that are easier to visit than the EU countries too.
>
>
> > - The (logistical and monetary) costs for getting a visa to the EU if you
> > must apply for one are not substantially different from those for getting
> > a visa to the US.
>
> Agreed, and my offer remains open, if the Portland team wants to fund
> calls to the embassy 0900 numbers for people requesting visa
> appointments, I'm happy to provide a WebRTC interface for that so
> individuals won't have to use their own phones to call.
>
> > - While the US immigration regime differs in some relevant details from
> > that in the EU, such as the fingerprinting requirement, the broad strokes
> > of the policies are the same.
> >
>
> > by sponsoring plane tickets for developers in Canada and the US down to
> > Venezuela.
>
> My query was not about comparing Portland with Venezuela, it was simply
> about acknowledging the extent of this problem for the US, for any
> potential DebConf in any year
>
> >
> > [1] http://www.debian.org/devel/developers.loc
> >
> >
> > Oh, and just to throw in some numbers: according to [2], 825 of 920 active
> > Debian developers (90%) live in countries whose citizens are eligible for
> > travel to the US without a visa. That includes the 37 visa waiver program
>
> When you consider that the remaining 10% is not an insignificant number
> of people and they make as valuable a contribution to the Debian project
> as anybody else, I think it is important for any DebConf bid to take
> some time to reflect on their travel situation.
I can't see where it was said that 10% is an insignificant number and
that those people aren't valuable to Debian. I see these numbers more as
a way to think that it's not time to put energy on setting a WebRTC
interface for a small percentage of another small percentage of people
who may or not have problems and who eventually would need or not to
make an international call to the US embassy.
Regards,
--
tiago
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