Re: [Debconf-team] Debian Kids Camp for DebConf-next
On 26/07/12 06:35, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:
> (We should maybe consider dropping -discuss as this is clearly -team material,
> IMHO)
>
> Hi all,
>
> Le mercredi, 25 juillet 2012 23.31:52, Daniel Pocock a écrit :
>> In any commercial project, if a customer made a special request like
>> this after accepting a proposal, the project manager calls a meeting and
>> offers two choices, (1) pay more money or (2) throw request out the window.
>
> While DebConf is not a commercial project and while we don't have "project
> managers", I would very much welcome a decision on this matter by the DebConf
> Team.
Nor was I hinting that it is a model we should aim to emulate, jumping
on people's ideas from a great height is hardly the way to build a happy
community
>> So while it is a great idea, I don't think it is reasonable to put any
>> pressure on the local team after the community accepted their original
>> proposal.
>
> I agree.
>
> During many discussions I've had at DebConf12 with various attendees, I've
> been repeatedly told that we "should really" (some said "must really") have
> "something" (including accomodation, catering and leisure) for kids and
> partners, some privacy for couples, etc. (Let's stay vague, you get the
> concept.) This puzzled me: while I very much understand how convenient it can
> be to go to a conference with partner and kids in Switzerland, have travel,
> accomodation and activities organised form them nearby, I really don't think
> it can be a principal goal of the DebConf Team (and that's without talking
> about the work it imposes to implement correctly). In fact, the primary and
> secondary goals of DebConf are already defined:
>
> http://debconf.org/goals.shtml
>
> This becomes an even trickier question when the DebConf accomodation is
> limited; as you know, the currently planned venue for DebConf13 (Le Camp) has
> a fixed amount of beds: 325 [0]. Given a DebConf13 in central Europe,
> reacheable rather easily by train from France and Germany, the expected amount
> of attendees is quite high (with a "high" to be defined, of course).
>
> So, to come straight to the point, one question that should be answered rather
> soon by the DebConf Team is the planned attribution of these beds across
> attendee categories. While it would certainly be possible to grant 100 beds to
> "people not interested in the conference but kid/partner", this would be a
> significant shift in what DebConf will look like.
This is the type of planning that would be assisted by [survey] results
> ( A reasonable alternative to this would be a completely external location /
> venue / program / accomodation with the "alternative DebConf" for non
> conference-attendees, organised by another team. )
>
> My current opinion is that partner accomodation (accepting the limited
> privacy) can be handled without too much problems; kids accomodation on the
> other hand opens a huge set of questions I'd rather avoid.
Just imagine if one hops on a train by mistake - there are many trains
in Switzerland, very frequently too, some children love trains
The 11 year old Manchester airport boy had never even been on a plane,
but he figured out the whole thing on his own
The real risk of having kids at the event is just 1 child goes missing,
everyone potentially has to put DebConf on hold and join a manhunt -
that is hundreds of man-hours at risk. Unless they are fitted with GPS
tracking...
>>> About accomodation: Not counting camping, we have space for 325 people
>>> in Le Camp. Being in Central Europe, it is not impossible that we get
>>> that number of attendees. Can we dare to provide lodging, possibly
>>> against our desired attendance?
Just a further comment on this: if there is overflow from the main site,
and if we don't manage pro-actively and negotiate conference rates with
each hotel, prices at local hotels could go sky-high or people could
waste a lot of time searching for accommodation options
Any such scheme will be under further pressure if families are
encouraged to attend and some other participants could be forced to stay
even further away from the venue.
This would be really bad if it happens to sponsors, for example.
>> There have been other queries about accommodation too. I think the way
>> to address this, and other issues, is to run a [survey], so I'm starting
>> a separate thread on that subject.
>
> While a survey is nice and shiny and can be used as a help for taking
> decisions, the DebConf Team should IMHO stay the set of humans that take the
> final decision (aligned with the survey results or not) as it is the set of
> humans that end up implementing "DebConf" on their free time.
For DebConf13, that is the reality of how it should work, because the
bid was already accepted
For DebConf14 and beyond, the survey results could have a bigger role
and be used to guide the bid process and improve the way that the
criteria are evaluated.
> (That said, I'm not convinced that a survey can really help for this question
> because it will most certainly end up biased.)
It depends what you mean by biased.
If everyone ticks the 5-star accommodation box and advises us that they
want to travel with their partner, nanny, 6 kids and pet crocodile, then
we know that either DebConf participants have a lot more money to spend
than we thought, or the survey effort was wasted
If the survey questions are designed to gather meaningful answers, then
we could have some valuable insights
The final word on the subject is that getting people to pay for
something is the only completely unbiased survey: for example, if 50
people are willing to contribute money to kids camp more than 6 months
in advance, then that is a good sign that the idea has support
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