Long term progress, not perfection
Wolfgang,
I respect your unhappiness with the status quo, I am sure you have
plenty of reasons to be angry. I am sure I share some of your concerns.
However I feel this is the wrong approach.
I've sent this to the debian-hurd list only for now, where it belongs
until the points are more clearly defined for presenting to others IMAO.
* Wolfgang Jährling <wolfgang@pro-linux.de> [020517 21:18]:
> Adam Heath <doogie@debian.org> wrote:
> > hurd does not exist alone in the universe, it exists alongside debian.
>
> True. But for most people in Debian, the Hurd doesn't exist at all and
> they "don't feel like caring about the Hurd". That is not only my
> subjective impression, but also what Debian developers said in the past
> (and some did behave accordingly). I would love to see the Hurd people
> and Debian people cooperate, but like Jeroen (and others as well), I
> have given up any hope and don't think that Debian will ever change in
> the necessary ways, as we were even told by people that they are
> unwilling to understand the Hurd-related issues.
This sets up animosity between "people"s without constructive feedback.
I feel comments like this hurt the efforts of those Hurd people who DO
care to continue forward. You and Jeroen, while certainly key
developers and while you may be expressing common feelings, "and others"
seems to speak for me, and I do not share your tactics.
General accusations and giving up hope don't change things.
What Debian ways are necessary to change?
> Putting people like Jeroen who complain about these things in your
> killfile won't help, and even indicates that what I wrote above is true:
> Debian people prefer to ignore these issues. Or do you think there are
^^^^^^^^^^^^^ us vs. them
> no problems at all and we are just whining? I can assure you that this
> is not the case. And while I understand that Debian has enough problems
> on its own, I think that something needs to be done with respect to the
> Hurd port, and I feel that this would be in the interest of everyone
> involved.
"Something needs to be done" - what?
> BTW, I planned to become a Debian developer a while ago, but for reasons
> similar to Jeroens, I have changed my opinion on that. I hope that
> others can keep their optimism longer than we could and will actually be
> able to improve Debian, but I doubt it. I rather expect that the Debian
> GNU/*BSD people will feel similar like most of us do right now. I hope
> that I'm wrong. :-/
Now you are speaking for even more people to try to justify your own
feelings. Not helpful to those who will continue forward.
> Thanks for listening to me.
>
> Cheers,
> GNU/Wolfgang
>
> --
> Wolfgang Jährling <wolfgang@pro-linux.de> \\ http://stdio.cjb.net/
> Debian GNU/Hurd user && Debian GNU/Linux user \\ http://www.gnu.org/
> The Hurd Hacking Guide: http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hacking-guide/
> ["We're way ahead of you here. The Hurd has always been on the ]
> [ cutting edge of not being good for anything." -- Roland McGrath ]
If you want to confront people who you know are already hostile directly
with unspecific arguments you should not expect wonderful results.
You and Jeroen seem to have put a time frame to your expectations. Why?
This port has been a long term game. As the software stabilizes the
code will speak for itself. Organizational change of any kind takes
longer. An organization of technical people - longer still. A
VOLUNTEER organization - longer still. What do you really expect and why?
--
-- Grant Bowman <grantbow@grantbow.com>
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