Bug#798460: apt: Testing transition broken
Hello,
I am going to chime in, hopefully the APT Deities will forgive me for
this intrusion...
2015-09-11 12:59 Clayton:
On Wed, 9 Sep 2015 22:08:18 +0200
David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> wrote:
Hi,
On Wed, Sep 09, 2015 at 10:45:01PM +0800, clayton wrote:
> I am a Testing user. One of my machines is upgraded. A couple days
> later and I try to upgrade another with the gcc5 transition, and
> apt is broken. "apt-get dist-upgrade" wants to remove 254 packages
> and "apt-get install apt" wants to remove 121 packages.
I read broken and instantly thing about segfaults, gcc5 linkr errors
or other big headache stuff – and "all" you are complaining about is
that APT presents you a solution you don't like…
I am happy if that is all. :)
Unstable users had to live with that for quite a while now thanks to
the gcc5 & libstdc++6 transition. Testing users should be /mostly/
uneffected, but now that the first parts of the transition entered
testing you will see softer versions of transition pain as well.
Its probably best to contact a debian support channel like a
debian-user mailinglist and ask there for advice – but you will have
to provide details details details for them – like the output apt
actually produced.
Removes aren't all "dangerous" removes. Many if not all of these
removes are likely of the form "install new package libfoov5;
removing package libfoo". That is 'normal' for the gcc5 transition.
Then there will be packages who still depend on libfoo – like
obsolete packages, packages not in testing at the moment, packages
proposefully temporarily broken in testing to get the sub-transition
over with faster, packages from third-party repositories … but nobody
can help if all you tell us is "254" and "121".
I am inclined to close as 'notabug', but I will give you a second
chance at giving us some details so that it is actually possible to
figure out what is the problem.
Just because it is not "OMG ITS COMPLETELY BROKEN" does not mean it is
not still broken. apt-get dist-upgrade basically wants to remove my
whole desktop. "apt-get install apt" still wants to remove essential
desktop apps: most or all of KDE and libreoffice, for starters.
Hey, I have been using Debian Testing for a long time (like more than a
decade) I am used to my desktop of preference breaking and then moving
to another for a while. But I don't think I am alone in viewing
libreoffice as essential and irreplaceable, and I would expect not to
be able to get libreoffice installed again for a while if I was to
upgrade in this state.
So I cannot upgrade in this state, therefore transition is broken for
me on this machine until the repository state changes. So I can wait for
a few days, sure.
But I would like to be able to recommend Debian as a desktop to my
Ubuntu-using friends. I personally do not consider a two+-year old
Debian Stable a reasonable desktop option. Therefore Debian Testing
must work for a reasonable person who is not a software engineer if we
are to compete with Ubuntu. This behavior does not make the cut.
To be fair, testing was never designed to compete against Ubuntu. It is
an intermediate step to help to prepare stable releases.
The fact that it works so well/smooth in general that it can almost be
used as a rolling release, or to compete with Ubuntu as in your case,
it's icing on the cake, but not the fundamental purpose of it.
(And there are always rough times in testing anyway, especially after
freeze period is over or desktops change to a major version, like KDE
right now).
Perhaps a bug against apt is not the place to make this stand, perhaps
apt can absolutely do no better in this scenario, and now it is your
turn to make that statement if it applies.
Surely apt is not the right place to complain because some packages
cannot be upgraded for a while in the worst transition that Debian has
seen at least in a decade.
(And given that only the small Release Team a handful of people have
been working on it, reviewing and making changes to hundreds of packages
without the help of maintainers in many cases, I think that it's quite
commendable that everything went quite smoothly).
Basically, apt behaviour is not bad, or broken, if it tells you "look,
if you really want to upgrade, I am going to remove all of this
software" -- on the contrary.
But for Debian as a whole this is definitely broken behavior that is not
suitable for public consumption. Most casual users would just upgrade
without paying much attention to the details and find themselves with
some serious breakage like uninstallable essential apps.
That's the risk of using "testing" (or "unstable") and not paying
attention to the details, I suppose. It's part of the thrill of living
on the wild side ;-)
Wouldn't it be a disappointment to say "I've been using an 'testing' for
a decade and updating almost every day, and I have never experienced a
single problem!!!" ?
In other words: no, testing cannot be relied upon to be used as a
rolling distribution at all times, by casual users not paying attention.
There is the Continuously Usable Testing effort (CUT) to try to make
this happen, but I think that it's mostly understaffed and I am not sure
if it's still active (haven't heard news lately).
Cheers.
--
Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo <manuel.montezelo@gmail.com>
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