Le mardi 21 avril 2020 à 15:24:02+0200, Enrico Zini a écrit : > [Readding Pierre-Elliott to the recipient list, overquoting for context] Yep, I'm not on da-manager@ as I'm no DAM, and I'm not on nm@d.o either, so please keep me in Cc. :) > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 11:05:46PM +0200, Laura Arjona Reina wrote: > > > Hello all > > > > Note: this is my personal opinion, not a consensus reply from the team. > > Also, maybe other things come to mind later, but now that I'm in front > > of the computer, I prefer to reply than leaving it for a later that can > > be too late. Any other feedback is welcome! > > > > El 20/4/20 a las 20:59, Pierre-Elliott Bécue escribió: > > > Dear WWW Team, > > > > > > After a discussion with Enrico, we both agreed on the fact that the > > > documentation on the official Debian Website regarding the New Member > > > Process (ie https://www.debian.org/devel/join/ and subpages) was needing > > > some changes : > > > > > > 1. It was a bit outdated, eg the steps didn't match what the nm.d.o > > > site currently shows > > > 2. It's hard to maintain for DAM when the added value of being on the > > > official website instead of the wiki is low to nought. > > > > Probably in another thread (or maybe in an IRC chat some day you like), > > but I really appreciate more details about what could we do to make > > website sections easier to maintain (so we help other teams in similar > > situations). > > > > For now, we try with: > > * We're in git (but still carrying the bad fame from CVS times?) > > * Maintainers only need to care about the /english folder, translators > > will care about the rest > > * Technically it's wml+perl but in fact it's mostly very basic HTML > > * The team accepts contributions via almost any channel (bts, salsa, > > mailing list...) and we're happy to provide commit permissions to > > whoever wants to maintain pages... > > * Questions/comments/ask for help in our IRC channel/mailing list are > > usually replied quickly. > > > > You say later that you would like to keep some parts (even if minimal) > > on the website so if we can help in any way, just tell. > > Good point, and I really appreciate the recent changes, to the point > that I now feel comfortable attempting submitting patches! > > The thing I personally still find hard is to test my patches before > sending them. So far I edited blind, hoping not to embarass myself and > waste your time mistyping html tags and similar things. Maybe the way I phrased the thing in my original email is not the best. What I meant is that there is a (legitimate) process to follow that isn't really relevant to maintain the documentation about how one can technically join the project and what are the steps. For the parts DAM intend to keep on the site, like who gets to decide who becomes developer, and how one leaves/loses his status, this is clearly a good idea to still have on the website! > > > 3. Developer's and Non-Developer's contributions are also hard to get, > > > while they could improve both the exhaustivity and the readability > > > of the documentation. > > > > Sorry, this point I didn't understand. Well, for someone trying to join and currently in the NM process, it's harder to submit a patch to www team, patch that would have to potentially be reviewed by the NM people, than to edit a wiki page. > > > 4. Still, there is a need for some elements to remain on the official > > > site. > > > > > > We agreed that wiki.d.o/DebianDeveloper was probably a nice namespace to > > > move that documentation to, and to clean up a bit, too, at the same > > > time. > [...] > > > This is a work in progress, and although it seems reasonable to expect that > > > we'll proceed with that or some variant, > > > > I'll try to have a look at the wiki pages and compare with the current > > website pages. > > > > The worse part of moving the stuff to the wiki would be to lose the > > translations, probably. Maybe most of the content would be rewritten in > > and we would lose them anyway, but AFAIK there are more teams working > > in translating the website than the wiki (this could be alleviated by a > > call for translations, maybe). I was intending to ask aroundd if people were eager to create the translations. > > In any case, if you move some parts directly without changes (certain > > paragraphs), maybe it would be nice to leave a note for translators > > somehow so they can copy their translation too, saving work. > > Effectively all of https://www.debian.org/devel/join/newmaint was out of > date enough to need rewriting. Pierre-Elliott did the rewrite and can > tell if and how much text can be salvaged. I salvaged bits, but bits that are incorporated in other bits that are from me, I don't know if that wouldn't be easier to translate the pages without trying to retain these bits from the previous translations. > On the other hand, technical details of the NM process refer to a > process that happens in English only, and might not benefit much from > translation. Moving the details of the NM process to the wiki would also > have the advantage of allowing the people who are going through the > process to work on the documentation on the spot. For example, > nm.debian.org pages like https://nm.debian.org/process/699/intent > have a "Wiki help" link on top, which links to the corresponding wiki > documentation, and if it's insufficient people can ask nm@debian.org or > #debian-newmaint and then update the page. > > Translation remains a good idea, I think, for https://www.debian.org/devel/join/ > which also document membership in Debian in general. I think it's > important that that page stays on www.debian.org, as it provides an > official description of membership workflows, which is something that we > need together with https://nm.debian.org/members The wiki has a translation system through subcategories lying in each language's namespace, so translating the pages I created would be possible and maybe make some sense. > > we would like to ask you your opinion > > > as this would include wiping https://www.debian.org/devel/join/nm* pages > > > > I don't know which other places in Debian (documentation, packages, wiki > > pages, policy...) the https://www.debian.org/devel/join/nm* are > > mentioned, but maybe it's good to set a list of redirects that we can > > add to the Apache configuration of the website, so people are driven to > > the new pages. > > We would need a bit of help from your part with that (the list of old > > pages to delete and the corresponding new pages). Sure! I can create that mapping when you get the new page patch by Enrico. > > and > > > rework https://www.debian.org/devel/join/ (Enrico has draft a patch for the > > > join page). > > > > Thanks! > > I'll send it in a day or so. > > > > > I tried to incorporate anything I know about the NM Process, with Enrico's > > > help, but I'm pretty sure this is far from perfect. If you have remarks on the > > > content, these are more than welcome! > > > > Feel free to create a branch under the webwml repo, if you prefer > > > > https://salsa.debian.org/webmaster-team/webwml/ > > > > or use the BTS (www.debian.org pseudopackage), as you wish. > > > > Now, with my publicity team hat, I think it would be nice to publish > > some news item (article in bits.debian.org or other) explaining the > > move/rework so the new documentation/info pages arrive to a wider > > audience, and reduces frustration of people trying to find the old > > pages. Ping us at debian-publicity to coordinate that, if you find it is > > a good idea. > > I like this idea! > > Probably it's also time for a news item about the recent single signon > changes, and nm.debian.org UI improvements. I could try to write such a news, if you'd like, Enrico. Cheers, -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
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