tags 613832 + patch thanks Hi there! Adding info@debian.ch to the cc: given that it is used as an example, please someone on the board corrects me if something below is wrong. On Sat, 19 Feb 2011 10:43:43 +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: > [ Quoted text reordered ] Strange, I found Francesca's reply quite clear and linear/successive, especially considering that the two problems we are discussing are yes linked, but the solution is independent from one to the other (read below for more details). > On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 05:27:35PM +0100, Francesca Ciceri wrote: >> Last but not least, at that point we would be obliged to list every Debian >> sisters (or to be correct Debian Trusted Organization): No, we should not assume that any random Trusted Organization sells merchandise, which by no means is sometime even more time consuming that maintaining a package. >> as the DPL (added in CC) said to me yesterday on IRC this kind of >> list already exists (http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Auditor/Organizations) >> and Debian Auditors take care of it. Adding it also in the merchandise >> page could turn out in unwanted duplication of information. >> >> BTW, I think that the Debian Trusted Organization list deserves a specific >> place on the website as it's a very official page and important page. > > Thanks Francesca for the Cc. It seems to me that there are two > intertwined aspects at stake. The first one is where to maintain the > list of trusted organizations as per constitution §5.1.11 and > §9.3. Maintaining that list is up to the auditors, according to the > current delegation. Fully agree, but to start I am more interested in the second point, given that it is easier to be solved (read below). > I believe that Luk started doing that on the wiki just because it was > easier™ that way. Given that the list doesn't change that often, I > believe that once it's stable that list deserves a proper place on > www.d.o (do you want a bug report about that?). Considering how > important those organizations are for Debian, even a specific > per-organization sub-page might be warranted. I would argue against so-much specific pages on www.d.o: why should Debian itself give information about "other" organizations? Please note the double quotes: IMHO this should be done by the Trusted Organizations themselves on their own pages, given that they are different entities WRT to Debian, while still being Debian. Just think about debian.ch, as a clear example: 1) debian.ch is a legally-recognized *association*, with a clear status and a board. OTOH and IIRC (again, please someone correct me if I am wrong) Debian does not have any legal status. 2) debian.ch should be self-contained in its resources (at least the website and a "community" mailing list), something which probably would not be possible if it needs a sub-page on www.d.o. 3) if a Trusted Organization must have a sub-page on www.d.o, why should not it use *all* the Debian resources for its work? Something like www.d.o/switzerland/ or switzerland@lists.d.o or #switzerland on irc.d.o or etc... Please always bear in mind that while a sister association is usually started by Debian Developers, it does not mean that all its members are DDs. In the case of debian.ch, we have at least one member who is not officially involved with the project (i.e. he is not a Debian Developer nor Maintainer nor he maintains packages in the Debian archive). As far as I remember, there is nothing in the debian.ch status that prevents him to become part of the board. This is in contrast with how Debian works, where "key positions" (or call them whatever you want) can be taken by DDs only. As a final though, as far as I read constitution $9.3, we are talking here about assets, which is always an hot discussion, given the easiest and common connection "volunteer means no money involved". >> Yes, I understand that debian.ch (and similar organisation, as Debian UK >> as you suggest) is a Debian sister (have an official status) AND give all >> proceeds to Debian Project. >> But, IMHO, for the specific purpose of the merchandise page (i.e. to inform >> users of existence of Debian merchandise vendors) the more relevant information >> is the one about the destination of the proceeds (as you have stated in a >> previous mail user could be more happy to see that proceeds fully or partially >> goes to Debian). > > The second issue is whether or not trusted organizations should be > blessed as "preferred" merchandise dealers in the merchandise page or > not. > > I've mixed feelings about that. My first answer used to be that > they should be, for two reasons: a) users do not need to trust an > "external" entity; b) buying from them users can help more Debian, in > the sense that all the money will be used for Debian goals (hardware, > sprints and the like). It could be seen as too much business-oriented, but I think that no one will complain if Trusted Organizations are the first choice available, given that Debian has full power over them (read below). >> More important, there could be vendors who have not an official status but who >> give all proceeds to Debian (and the "the vendor is a Debian organisation" >> would be false and the categorization not exhaustive). > > On a second though however, this argument of Francesca is quite > compelling. A hypothetical shop giving all its income on Debian > merchandise to Debian fully satisfies point (b) above. > > It still does not address point (a) above though and we also risk that > they only *claim* to give proceeds to Debian. This, unfortunately, is a risk for Trusted Organizations as well. Which actually reduces point (a) to "zero" with the only difference (an important one, nevertheless) that with Trusted Organizations Debian can take serious actions, while with other vendors it can not. > All in all, I believe that *mentioning* in the merchandise page that > entities like debian.ch are trusted organizations of the Debian project > won't hurt. It will account for more transparency on who-is-who and will > also address (a) for users who care about it. The mention can come as a > note, as a new boolean column and in the future as a link to the www.d.o > sub-page describing the trusted organization in question. I would argue against such an over-complication of the merchandise page: we should keep it as simple as possible, so the information can be found instantaneously. At least for what it is intended now, i.e. delegating the merchandise stuff to someone else. OTOH, as for previous informal discussion about such an aspect (this topic is already on my ToDo list, as I clearly stated on the announcement for the new events/merchandise handling [1]), if we want to expand the merchandise page to something more complete, then this aspects would be sorted out by itself. [1] <http://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/%3c87tyg2g6ed.fsf%40gismo.pca.it%3e> > Regarding the sorting of merchandise vendors, it would be nice to sort > them according to which percentage of merchandise they give back to > Debian (higher percentage first). That would be a fair criteria, useful > to Debian finances. Frankly speaking, this would be surely a mess. It is already difficult to maintain the current list, given that apart the status of the vendor (easily verifiable, just visit the website), there is no way to verify: first, if they are behaving correctly WRT the customers (shipping on time the selected goodies) and, second, how much they actually donate back to Debian. While I would simply create two categories (Trusted Organizations and others), Francesca's proposal [2][3][4] seems OK, but I will also add a special text next to Trusted Organizations (which link to the future page on www.d.o), something like: <vendor debian.ch> <type <trustedorganization>> <URL "http://debian.ch/merchandise/";> <their_products <t-shirts>, <stickers>, <umbrellas>> <their_proceeds <noncommercial>> [2] <http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?archive=yes&bug=613832#10> [3] Francesca, you forgot to add the 'patch' tag [4] but the debian.ch link is without 'www' ;-) Thx, bye, Gismo / Luca
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