Re: Why no /CD/ link on / ?!
On Sun, Mar 23, 2003 at 01:50:35AM +0100, Richard Atterer wrote:
> > the /CD/ page was reportedly too crowded and too out of sync with the
> > rest of the web site, so I wrote /distrib/cd to complement the main page
> > and the /distrib/ page.
> >
> > In fact, I purposely didn't touch /CD/ because I was afraid you'd throw a
> > hissy fit if I did!
>
> Hmm, now I'm surprised. I wasn't aware that you had such a strong dislike
> against the current /CD/. You know, you could have said something!
Well, it's not that I don't like it. It's just that it's designed to be a
drop-in replacement for cdimage.debian.org. Everything about CDs in one
place. That's good, but lots of users don't need that.
> Anyway, surely doing the change "secretly" would only delay my "hissy fit",
> so what did it buy you? :)
I wasn't aware you'd actually object to shuffling links around, the same
links I happened to put there in the first place... for a while, /CD/ wasn't
being linked to actively from other pages.
> > the /CD/ page was reportedly too crowded
>
> I haven't seen any of these reports, were they sent to webmaster@ ?
TBH I don't recall. I just recall that more than one person insisted on how
we don't make things the route to "0-DAY CD IMAGES!!1!" clear enough, so I
fixed that. The first page says "CD ISO images", there it points to only two
methods, and that's that. (More or less, but more on that below...)
> > and too out of sync with the rest of the web site
>
> If you mean the different page design, we can talk about that. (Except I'd
> really love to keep that png showing the "Debian CD"...)
No, it's not just the design, it's the thing I said above about cdimage.d.o.
> Anyway, I'm now *not* going to throw up my hands in disgust and say "I'm
> out" - in the interest of a nicely navigatable website, we should solve
> this issue one way or another, the current structure with two "main" CD
> pages is just ridiculous IMHO.
Which two main CD pages? There's no such thing. There's several pages
that have similar or same stuff as pages you wrote in /CD/, but that's not
a bad thing, that's a good thing. Redundancy in documentation is not bad.
> I ran your program by ignoring the misleading directions of some
> sites,
Looks like directory indices of the mirrors...
> For instance, the URL is
> http://us.cdimage.debian.org/jigdo-area/3.0_r1/jigdo/i386/woody-i386-1.jigdo
> for the first Debian iso image and not
> http://us.cdimage.debian.org/jigdo-area/3.0_r1/jigdo/i386/ which is the
> directory where they exist.
Ditto.
> Debian should make the standard ISO available even if slow because it
> would be better than nothing.
This sounds like they missed the links to full images, indeed. But...
> With that intent, perhaps you could list the different versions which are
> available with a simple description of each one. I suggest one page that
> scrolls a long way down (never side to side) with the version as the
> heading or title and a following paragraph rather than a link for each one
> to another page. Right next to each heading or title, there should be a
> link for each one to take the visitor to the download page for just that
> version only. I would stay with http rather than ftp simply to avoid
> confusion. The cryptic file names and disassociated file groups don't
> serve the visitor very well.
That looks like a problem with Apache directory index they get after they're
done with www.d.o.
> It is very confusing to see template and jigdo files types when people
> are familiar with seeing a single zip or exe or iso for what they
> want. Hide the rest from them. When they are done with one CD image,
> they can go back and get the next one.
Ditto...
> I just went to the web site as you linked it in this mail. [I had mailed
> him a link to /CD/... ;-] It is different than the route I took. I have
> since found a better one, which shows how easily a visitor gets mislead by
> complex pages. I will list the various (too many) steps here:
> http://www.debian.org/ > What is Debian > Read more... > How do I get
> Debian > Our page about getting Debian > Make a CD set yourself (At this
> point is where the real problems start.)
At that point he's already passed the pages I modified, and deep within /CD/
stuff.
> > Official CD images of the "stable" release - see below > United States:
> mirror.cs.wisc.edu: FTP HTTP (I guessed that this was the Wisconsin
> university site, but they should be labeled) > And here it doesn't matter
> if one chooses the FTP or HTTP link because the only difference is the
> size of the icons and type. Neither is any good since no directions about
> what to download are shown.
Again, directory index. (I must say that I sympathise...)
> [wisc.edu is listed as CD mirror but only has the .jigdos. Doh.]
That's something we'll be needing to fix, a distinction between various
kinds of CD image mirrors in the mirror list(s).
> Since that is a dead end, let's try again from:
> make a CD set yourself > Assemble images using jigdo: > Available images
> USA mirror > i386/ (I knew enough to guess at this, but most wouldn't) >
> Opps, dead in the water again.
Again, he got lost much after the part I modified.
> At the debian.org home page, there should be a download link.
Ah, looks like another change I did, marginally related to /distrib/cd,
removed a link that said "Download". Need to find a place for that buzzword
again...
> You should understand that the user doesn't even need to know about ISO
> files. The point is that they should go to a link for the file they want
> based on a sentence or paragraph description. For instance, "Do you want
> to create your own CD images?, then select this link". At that page it
> would say, "Download number one, then download number two, and only number
> three if you want the supplemental CD", or words to that effect.
More of the same. This stuff is also explained within /CD/.
All in all I don't think the real harm is done by the five or six steps from
the beginning because even though there's reasonably many of them, they are
straightforward, they're easy to figure out. It's the last mile that's the
showstopper, and he's totally right, we don't actually tell people which
exact file they need to download right there, we leave them to experiment.
It's easy to get on the pedestal later and refer them to the FAQ, but that's
not helping anybody...
--
2. That which causes joy or happiness.
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