Re: Possible draft non-free firmware option with SC change
On Sun, 2022-09-11 at 08:19 +0200, Simon Josefsson wrote:
> Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> writes:
> > Since the hardware most users use causes the first problem, the people
> > fielding these support requests see that the free installer is in most
> > cases not useful and therefore want to stop building or working on it.
>
> The problem is caused by hardware manufacturer chosing to require
> non-free works for their use. The blame for that choice lies on the
> hardware manufacturer, not on Debian. Accepting the blame for someone
> else's choices and taking on the responsibility solve the consequences
> of that choice seems misguided to me.
Hardware has always required non-free firmware (with very few
exceptions); for various reasons less hardware preinstalls them. There
is not much change in freeness here.
> It makes it harder for users to
> experience the frustration of such hardware themselves.
Is making the experience of (trying to) use Debian on pretty much all
modern hardware frustrating a design goal? I understand your comment as
saying that making it harder to experience the frustration is a problem
for you.
> I disagree they
> always get the non-free installer eventually: some end up learning about
> the problem and chose better hardware.
Sure, from experience many will just use a different distribution. Is
this a problem for you or does it not matter?
What is this "better hardware" by the way? Hardware that comes with
pre-installed non-free firmware so one can pretend the firmware isn't
really there? (And reading LWN comments: does this also include the
"Windows" firmware and just running WSL? That might be in line with how
GNU's operating system based on Hurd seems to be mostly used: in a VM.)
I'm tempted to suggest the free installer should refuse to work with
preinstalled non-free firmware by default so users are not confused
into believing they run only free software. ;-)
> If Debian takes on itself to solve the problems with non-free
> hardware, I think we are in more difficult position to ask for a
> change.
So we should include firmware after all? Because Debian not including
firmware seems to be trying to solve the problem on its own unlike the
solution most others have adopted.
Ansgar
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