Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 03:15:08PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 08:40:26-0400, Roberto C. Sánchez a écrit :
> > On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 01:58:49PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> > > Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 12:11:18+0100, Steve McIntyre a écrit :
> > > > On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 10:40:35AM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> > > > >Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 03:52:23+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit :
> > > > >> > Please stop now.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Or?...
> > > > >
> > > > >Actually we could ask you to be banned from Debian lists, but here I
> > > > >assume it was merely a request.
> > > >
> > > > Nod, that's exactly what it was. Maybe polite requests aren't
> > > > effective enough for some people.
> > >
> > > Some people tend to only see coercion when one asks them something
> > > strongly.
> > >
> > > I guess it's because they are keen on having conflicts and fights
> > > instead of trying to remain on a civilized terrain.
> > >
> > So, then is everybody always wrong?
> >
> > Participants on Debian mailing lists calling for civility have been
> > accused of sealioning [0] (or similar bad-faith) not that long ago.
> >
> > Either: (a) everybody is expected to remain civil and act accordingly,
> > or, (b) everybody is allowed to escalate according to their own view of
> > the situation or their own personal feelings (e.g., frustration,
> > perceived opression, etc.).
> >
> > The situation where some are allowed or even encouraged to escalate
> > because they are expressing a "favored" or "right" opinion and others
> > are specifically targeted and decried for escalating (or even simply
> > calling for civility) because they are expressing a "disfavored" or
> > "wrong" opinion is a literal double-standard. We should be above that.
>
> My point is "when one asks another to stop something", it's not
> necessarily with a "or I'll slap you", "or I'll have you banned" or
> whatever you wanna think about. That's all.
>
"Please stop now" is a perfectly reasonable request (especially in this
case where Sergey persists in being difficult). "Please stop now, or I
will have you banned" is a threat, which creates a threatening
environment for the person, and which, incidentally, goes against the
code of conduct.
Cetainly, we must have a way to address situations like this without
allowing them to create a toxic environment for everyone else and also
without creating a threatening environment for the individual creating
the potential disruption. In fact, this is the principal purpose of the
community team, as I understand it. Not being confident in my own
ability to properly deal with a situation like "communicate a 'please
stop this or else' in a non-threatening way", I would involve the
community team.
> I don't see how your answer is relevant to that.
>
> Regarding your last paragraph, it seems to me that many things you state
> here are subjective. When people are freewheeling they get remarks
> wherever they come from. But indeed, when some people express ideas
> against Debian's CoC, the reaction is stronger. This is not a double
> standard. It's just that there is a ruleset we try to work with, and
> those going against are more prone to get remarks.
>
> What a surprise.
>
The statement "Actually we could ask you to be banned from Debian lists,
but here I assume it was merely a request." sounds very much
threatening. Perhaps only mildly threatening, but still threatening.
The addition of "Nod, that's exactly what it was. Maybe polite requests
aren't effective enough for some people." escalates the situation. The
fact that the statements came from two different individuals against one
individual makes it seem considerably more threatening than either
statement taken in isolation.
I don't know if you or anyone else tried to address Sergey directly
off-list to let him know how his own statements might be problematic.
But, the public thread seems to be heading toward an undesirable
conclusion, rather than trying to change its course in a constructive
way.
In any event, this sort of thing is difficult. I think you were trying
to help and maybe did not see your own statement as threatening. Sergey
seems determined, though his objective is not clear. Either way, he is
clearly very frustrated.
Regards,
-Roberto
--
Roberto C. Sánchez
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