Re: linux kernel and nvidia - never ending story
Am Dienstag, 8. März 2022, 00:25:54 CET schrieb Stefan Monnier:
No, you are completzely wrong! It is not Nvidia to blam,e when COMPILING
fails! It is NOT Nvidia to blame, when the packages are REMOVED from the repo,
because your KERNEL breaks the compiling! And it is NOT Nvidia to blame, when
the nouveau driver CRASHES! And it is NOT Nvidia to blame, when the new kernel
BREAKS the compiler!
NO, it is not Nvidia to blame, that is just lame excuse. I know exactly,. whom
to blame, but I do not tell it here.
Best
Hans
> > Oh, no, this I see not this way. When there is a new kernel shipped,
> > I expect that this does not break the system!
>
> That's indeed what the kernel team aims for.
>
> > I expect that at least the code, that is already existent, builds.
>
> Problem is: even the "minor" changes of kernel bug fixes done within
> a stable release ... change the code. By definition.
>
> So they do incur the risk of breaking existing code. To avoid this
> problem, bug fixes make as few changes as possible, but when the third
> party code relies on details considered internal to the kernel, this may
> sometimes break.
>
> The kernel team would be much happier if they could work *with* Nvidia
> to avoid those problems. But that would require Nvidia be more open
> about its code.
>
> > This does NOT work., as I told. The drivers from the nvidia site do
> > no more build with a new kernel version. Who is then to blame?
>
> Obviously it depends who you ask. The kernel side doesn't consider
> itself to blame because they do expose a "stable" API which Nvidia
> could use.
>
> > It is the kernel that changed, who breaks the system, not the driver,
> > who has NOT chenged!
>
> Not necessarily. Maybe the part that did not change relied on a bug in
> the kernel, so there might have been no easy way to fix the bug without
> breaking the third party code.
>
> >> 5. I only now realize that your card is actually too OLD, sorry. What
> >> should I say, the latest release of the 340 branch from nvidia is dating
> >> back to 2019.12.23. If they dont support their older products anymore
> >> themselves, do you expect Debian to hack their closed source driver?
> >
> > And what? 3 years is too old???
>
> Tell that to Nvidia.
> I have no such problems with my >10 year old AMD and Intel graphics cards.
>
> > I do not expect the drivers to be improved, but I expect, that the
> > drivers can be used further on!
>
> The kernel changes. If you want a driver to "survive" it will need to
> adapt. Commercial interest will inevitably wane after a few years, so
> the only way it can last more than 3-5 years is if the code is Free
> Software so other people can pick up maintenance.
>
> > This is not to few to be expected, isn't it?
>
> Nowadays I consider a computer's expected lifetime to be at least 10 years.
>
> >> 6. If nvidia would only be a little bit more cooperative, nouveau would
> >> be in a much better state. I found it usable for older cards, although
> >> the prorietary driver is of course much better in terms of performance
> >> and power saving.
> >
> > As I wrote, please read it again: The nouveau driver does not work for
> > this
> > card, X is totally unstable and so often freezing, that it can not be
> > used.
>
> I encourage you to file bug reports for that and try to help fix the
> problem as best as you can. It might be worth trying it with a "fresh"
> install since I've heard several reports that Nouveau installations can
> be impacted by the installation of the proprietary Nvidia driver.
>
> > Did I tell, it is debian/stable?
>
> FWIW, the "stable" in the name doesn't refer to a claim that the
> resulting systems run reliably, but that they try to avoid behavioral
> changes within a given stable release.
>
> Obviously, they're having trouble reaching this goal w.r.t compatibility
> with proprietary third party kernel modules.
>
> >> 7. Intel (what I use these days) and AMD support Linux in a much cleaner
> >> way, avoiding many of the problems with the nvidia blob.
> >
> > Yes, may be, but who cares. As I wrote, it is not possible, to change the
> > graphics card in noterbooks.
>
> No, but you can choose the card in the next laptop you buy (and in
> those you recommend others).
>
> > Why shhould one? Shall I tell all customers, "Hey, throw away your
> > 5 or 8 year old stuff!", which yesterday worked well and today, after
> > an upgrade does no more, because a simple driver can not be compiled?
> > No, that is the wrong way!
>
> Agreed. Much better is to work with those who try to keep this hardware
> working with the rest of the software. In the case of Nvidia cards,
> this is the Nouveau team.
>
> Noone but Nvidia can do that for the proprietary driver.
>
>
> Stefan
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