Challenge to you: Voice your concerns regarding systemd upstream (was: Re: There is no choice)
Am Montag, 22. September 2014, 23:50:46 schrieb lee:
> Martin Steigerwald <Martin@lichtvoll.de> writes:
> > Am Montag, 22. September 2014, 03:41:53 schrieb lee:
> >> "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@galactic.demon.co.uk> writes:
> >> > Jessie freezes no later than November 5th 2014. Allow folk who are
> >> > trying
> >> > to work on the distribution to work on it and not to have to intervene
> >> > in
> >> > this sort of discussion, please.
> >>
> >> Nobody prevents them from doing either or forces them to do anything.
> >>
> >> Once they have finished their work, Debian will have fallen under the
> >> control of systemd. Then what will it take to undo the damage?
> >
> > Do you really think this decision is *set in stone*.
>
> It doesn't look as if it's not.
>
> > I have full trust in debian developer community that if need be, they
> > could
> > switch the init system once again. Especially as the others are still
> > there in the archive. It would be work, but I think its certainly doable.
>
> They might be able to make another init system the default. Do you
> really think they will be able to prevent all the other software from
> depending on a particular init system or parts of it?
Well… thats to be taken upstream, isn´t it?
> > So I don´t think systemd upstream has the power to control Debian.
> >
> > Debian is a community project. No single upstream is going to control it.
>
> Gimp already depends on (parts of) systemd in current stable. Do you
> know a way to install gimp without installing (parts of) systemd? And
> gimp is not the only thing with a dependency like this.
>
> Supporting systemd and making systemd even the default init system opens
> the door for it to increasingly take control of software totally
> unrelated to an init system a bit wider. It seems that this door cannot
> be closed anymore.
Didn´t know about GIMP.
Okay, point taken.
Adopting it encourages this behavour.
Yet, there is still choice. You can avoid upstream who depend on systemd.
Debian itself still is able to run without systemd as far as I know.
I dislike this black and white thinking. Do I see dangers with systemd? Yes, I
do. Do I also see the advantages it brings? Yes, I do.
Its not black, nor white, but something in between.
And still I think its important to take this upstream.
Or to *help*. Make a logind that does not depend on systemd. Offer it to the
upstreams that need it.
> > While I still am not sure what to thing about systemd, there are things I
> > like and things I dislike about it, I appreciate a discussion about it
> > that goes beyond spreading FUD.
>
> Experiencing that the devs of systemd refuse to fix their
> misunderstanding of what "disabled" means, looking at the poor
> documentation of systemd and having found it ridiculously troublesome to
> accomplish a very simple task --- i. e. getting squid-2.7 started and
> shut down correctly --- is enough for me to utterly dislike it.
I was able to get atop and atopacctd started just fine with systemd service
files in preparation for atop 2.1 debian package (which will also have init
scripts). I had some specialized questions and was answered that just nice on
IRC on debian-systemd channel.
> Other issues have been pointed out in the discussion here and
> otherwhere, and I'm finding them much worse.
Actually I raised the resistance and opposotion against systemd issue on
upstream mailing list, as I believe there its much more useful than here:
[systemd-devel] I wonder… why systemd provokes this amount of polarity and
resistance
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023290.html
And I also reported another bug at least related to systemd, which I think is
quite grave:
Bug#762558: Acknowledgement (systemd fails to get dbus connection while dbus
is running)
https://bugs.debian.org/762558
So my challenge to you and all others who dislike things about systemd:
Voice your concerns upstream. systemd-devel is a mailinglist anyone can
subscribe to.
For it to be most effective: Be polite, be gentle, but also be clear,
descriptive and detailed with your concerns. Give concrete examples.
So my challenge is to you:
*Act* for change.
Instead of just venting your frustration here, which will do nothing,
absolutely and utterly nothing for any change! But basically the opposite, the
more energy you put into venting engaging here in a ton of threads, the less
energy you will have to bring forth change.
I bet most of those here, who criticize systemd never ever have even *tried*
to take any of this upstream. I am delighted to see any proof of that you did.
Just really important: Watch your tone. If you are disrepectful, then chances
are that you will be ignored. And IMHO *rightfully* so.
Ciao,
--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7
Reply to: