Re: There is no choice
Don Armstrong <don@debian.org> writes:
> On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, lee wrote:
>> These few people are also very concerned with preventing other people,
>> particularly users, from doing something which would contribute to
>> what they claim that they are doing.
>
> Exactly how are Debian Developers preventing others from contributing?
Try to provide a Debian package and you'll see that it is so
ridiculously difficult that it is virtually impossible. Fedora is the
same. Post to the debian-devel mailing list, and you will find your
posts totally ignored. Make bug reports and you'll find them ignored or
are being told that the problem will never be fixed. You'll even find
yourself left stranded with a broken and non-fixable system because the
devs decided to change something that used to work fine.
Try to help by providing translations, and you'll find it's impossible
because there's nowhere and no one to offer such service.
Look at the fedora-users mailing list where you can hear the devs saying
that they are interested in what users are thinking and then, a few
posts later, that they don't care what users are thinking. A while
later, they close whole threads because they don't like them, telling
people what they are allowed to think and what not. What the devs are
thinking about is trying to make Fedora lead the development of FOSS ---
well, if they think they should do that with total disregard for the
users of FOSS, you have to ask what these ppl think who they are.
Make an improvement/extension to some software and find it totally
ignored by the devs after being told they might integrate it.
Speak up because you care about something, and you'll be told to shut up
or even that you're an annoying person.
As you can see, it's not only Debian developers I'm disappointed with.
Sadly, the quality of Debian has declined over the years --- and I'm not
the only one saying that --- and one of the reasons for this might be
disregard for the users.
> Almost everything we do is publicly available.
That's nice --- what difference does this make, or what consequences
does it have?
> Nothing is stopping anyone from contributing to Debian, proposing
> patches, or even forking Debian entirely if you want.
Nothing is stopping you from fighting against windmills. It's cool that
I could make my own fork of Debian, and it won't be possible without the
huge amounts of work lots of ppl, like the devs, have put into Debian.
Yet I don't want to make my own fork. I wouldn't be able to maintain
it, and I'd rather see some software I've written available as a Debian
package. It might be useful for other users and I'd be happy to see
them using it.
However, I had to make my own fork of some software --- unrelated to
Debian --- because no contribution was appreciated by the devs. I still
maintain that fork, simply because I want the functionality I
implemented, and AFAIK I'm the only one who uses it. Anyone else is
free to use it or to fork it ...
> In all of these separate threads, you have been doing little but
> maligning people who are volunteering for Debian. It's not a nice thing
> to do, it's not pleasant to read, and in doing so, you're actively
> draining existing contributor's desire to continue working on Debian.
>
> Please stop.
I know how that feels. You want to contribute and feel that it is not
appreciated --- in this case because you encounter some criticism. It's
very disappointing and makes you ask yourself why you put any effort
into contributing.
Despite all disappointment, I still contribute, even if it's only by
publishing software I created under GPL. Nobody cares, but I do it
nonetheless because I'm using software others have contributed to, so I
find it only right to let them use what I created or contributed to, and
I'll be happy if anyone uses it.
What I don't understand is that criticism and other forms of speaking up
cannot be considered as a form of contribution. I'm not speaking up
because I wanted to diminish someones willingness to contribute or
because I hated Debian developers. I'm speaking up because I would like
to see a change which I think would be for the better. I admit that I
do it for a selfish reason: Because I would like to be able to continue
to use all the great software so many people have contributed to, with
all the freedom we now have in doing so, with all the choices and in the
quality available to us now, and preferably even more choices and even
better quality to come. I'm seeing this ability endangered.
Even this last straw, if you want to call it that, of an attempt to
contribute in some way, is encountered with "shut up". Your criticism
is that criticising diminishes contributers' willingness to contribute.
Would you rather see the users quietly moving off because they made
experiences similar to those I made when they were trying to do
something for what they think is the better?
How does Debian know what the users Debian, according to Debians' social
contract, are making their priority want or need when they tell the
users to (either) shut up (or to become a Debian developer) when the
users try to speak? Please recognise that there are users --- and that
not all users can fork Debian or become Debian developers in order
contribute. Please value the users rather than shoving them aside
unless they have forked Debian with great success or have become Debian
developers. Please recognise that there are other ways to contribute
than forking Debian or becoming a Debian developer.
Perhaps my train of thought is totally mistaken. I'd be happy if you
could convince me that it is and that everything is perfect.
--
Knowledge is volatile and fluid. Software is power.
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