Creating a forum for systemd debate (was Re: Issues upgrading Wheezy --> Jessie (was ... Re: brasero requires
gvfs))
Reply-To: Joel Roth <joelz@pobox.com>
In-Reply-To: <[🔎] 5416E94A.8070500@attglobal.net>
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 9/15/2014 3:27 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > On Sunday 14 September 2014 19:42:40 Steve Litt wrote:
> >> Every time you tell one of us to keep silent, three more of us speak
> >> up. I don't know whether we're a minority, but if you and your cohorts
> >> keep shushing us, we just might be the majority pretty soon.
> >
> > I wasn't telling anyone to keep silent!! You are so fixated in your beliefs
> > that you don't bother with facts any longer!
> >
> > I have asked you personally to keep silent because you do repeat and repeat
> > and repeat and repeat.... But I haven't been successful have I?
> >
> > As you acknowledge, you are part of a minority. Do stop bullying the rest of
> > us.
> >
> > Lisi
> >
> >
>
> Or, maybe there are a lot of people (like me) who have watched this
> discussion with interest, but remained silent. I, too, don't like the
> way Debian is taking things with systemd. From a device driver
> developer's POV, I don't see any advantages, and see a lot of
> disadvantages. Plus, like others, I don't like the attitude of the
> systemd developers.
>
> So far I've seen some good reasons why Debian should not go that way.
> But I've seen few technical reasons why this is a good idea. Most of
> the comments by supporters are along the lines of "this is a good thing"
> (with no reasons), "It's going to happen so get used to it", or just
> plain "shut up already!".
>
> I've also read all of the past discussions referenced in this and other
> discussions. All they have done is make me even more leery of systemd.
>
> I would love to hear some good technical reasons why this is a good idea.
I find it interesting that the decision to adopt systemd as
Debian's default init system was made by the technical
committee, whereas some of the large issues that I think
*should* influence the decision are related to the attitude
and behavior of the systemd developers.
I just re-reviewed the LKML thread where Linus criticizes
Kay Siever's behavior, and how Lennart responds. I'm no
connosieur of the argmentation styles on LKML, but the
systemd guys come across as acting like they're our new
bosses, and showing none of the humility and accountability
I would expect.
To me, the non-technical issues raise a huge red flag.
I'd prefer not to surrender control of my system to someone
I don't trust.
For now, I'm running sysvinit and the systemd libraries are
available for the few programs I'm using that need them.
However, in the long term, I can see how systemd
dependencies in the packaging system will gradually reduce
user options to configure systems without systemd.
I sympathize with those posting to the list with strong
opinions and a tone of alarm. IMO, they have legitimate
reasons to consider their software ecosystem to be in peril.
Perhaps they would like to sway the Debian community at
large, or failing that, to sway enough technically skilled
people to create a fork of Debian that doesn't depend on
systemd.
I think it should be possible to find or create a forum for
those who are concerned about this issue. I know that
I would subscribe.
I can also sympathize with those who don't want this list
dominated by a flame war.
Regards,
Joel
> Jerry
>
>
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--
Joel Roth
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