Re: Installation
Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> writes:
> On Thu, 13 Sep 2012 03:49:40 +0200, lee wrote:
>
>> Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 02:10:31 +0200, lee wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It can be ridiculously difficult to install Debian.
>>>
>>> (...)
>>>
>>> When it comes to an OS, installation process can be considered
>>> irrelevant. The real problems starts afterwards.
>>
>> It is irrelevant when you can't install the OS?
>
> No. It is irrelevant to consider the installation step as the source
> problem because the installation variable can be easily avoided by 1)
> buying a computer with pre-installed OS on it (Windows, MacOS, Ubuntu,
> FreeDOS...) or 2) having a friend that installs it for you (Windows,
> MacOS, Ubuntu, FreeDOS...).
If you have these options ... I don't buy pre-build computers, and even
if I would, why would I buy another one rather than use the one I
already have? And are you going to pay for it? I don't have a friend
who could install it for me.
In any case, it is not irrelevant whether the OS can be installed or
not. Who tries to install it doesn't matter.
> The system is installed and running, now what?
Now the user needs to keep learning.
>> expect that there are no problems with installing windoze on a raid. If
>> I can't they get that right, it's even worse than I imagine.
>
> What!? You are being too optimistic then :-)
Oh my ...
But wait! I could go ask my neighbours how to do it. I'm sure they
know!
>>>> I've seen broken Debian installers that couldn't find packages. I've
>>>> had installer CDs that couldn't be read for some reason, so I had to
>>>> drive an hour to the place I worked at to make a new ones and drive an
>>>> hour back.
>>>
>>> And I've seen BSOD Windows at the installer which was not able to
>>> detect the storage controller driver. And also printers that cannot be
>>> used because the manufacturer did not provide the 64-bits driver
>>> because a 4- years old device is considered "obsolete" and thus
>>> unsupported.
>>
>> Then the software goes back to the place I got it from. If I buy
>> windoze, I pay for something that works. They can fix it or take it
>> back.
>
> Dude, you can't do this for "do it yourself" computers.
sure I can
>>> To my eyes, clueless windows users are the same than clueless linux
>>> users. What differs them is not the OS but their attitude (how they
>>> confront the problem).
>>
>> Clueless is clueless, so what's the difference?
>
> Yet over again? "Attitude" makes the difference.
What difference? If someone is clueless, they are clueless, no matter
what their attitude is.
>>> I wonder how many bugs have you reported and how of them has been
>>> solved ;-)
>>
>> I didn't count. Some them seem to have been ignored, some were fixed.
>
> Yeah, that's the norm. I mean, the former ("ignored") is the norm :-)
It depends on what software you report the bug.
>>>> You can even get bugs fixed the next day on a weekend when you report
>>>> one.
>>>
>>> You have to be kidding... unless, of course, you are talking about
>>> security fixes or problems for customers that have expressly paid for
>>> support.
>>
>> Not at all, I've had that happening. It wasn't a security fix and it
>> was free software I didn't pay anything for.
>
> Oh, sure. This happens from time to time. But you have to be rather
> persistent and there's no guarantee for the problem to be solved.
No, I didn't have to be persistent. I just sent a bug report and the
bug was fixed the next day. With commercial software, there's as much a
guarantee that your bug won't be fixed as you can get a guarantee.
>>>> What commercial software has support that good?
>>>
>>> That will depend on what you can afford.
>>
>> I'm talking about support that doesn't cost anything, of course.
>
> Then you are hoping for too much, sir. And remember that free software is
> not about things that cost ($) anything.
No, I know that there isn't any support with commercial software, like
it or not.
> Sadly, there's still times when you cannot select what to use and there
> are lots of software packages and hardware devices that do not provide
> their sources, that's the problem and we have to face it, like it or
> not :-/
Sure, it would be nice if that was different. OTOH, do you really have
a problem with/due to that?
>>>> Unsupported hardware, yes, you have to be picky about what you buy ---
>>>> which isn't bad because you avoid crappy hardware which is too likely
>>>> to give you problems to be worth it.
>>>
>>> Don't expect a newbie is going to know about that. They will only buy
>>> what it simply fits to their requirements.
>>
>> It doesn't fit their requirements when the software they want to run
>> doesn't support it.
>
> And they only notice when its too late and start blaming linux and its
> poor harwdare support ;-)
Do you expect clueless users to make good judgements?
>>>> Outdated applications? Yes, some packages in Debian are rather old. So
>>>> I got emacs and fvwm and compiled them myself; how more recent can you
>>>> get?
>>>
>>> Again, don't expect a newbie to compile their own packages. I'm a long
>>> time linux user and rarely do...
>>
>> You have that option. If you don't know how to do it, you can learn,
>> that's a different issue.
>
> Exacttly: that's an attitude. You see? :-)
Ah, maybe I see what you mean. You have overlooked where the attitude
you're referring to comes from: Winzoze users don't have source codes,
they don't have documentation, and their system doesn't come with a
compiler. It is designed to keep its users stupid. It's not an option
for them to do anything, so they live with the problems. Every now and
then, they re-install and start over from scratch. Nothing to worry
about ...
Thinking of it, it's really smart to keep the users stupid. They will
keep buying new versions, not become demanding and are easy to
control. It's like getting people used to be slaves. Don't let them
realise that they are slaves, that makes it easier --- or find people
who like to be slaves.
>>> And you only have type your problem at the Google search box and yu'll
>>> get thousand hits, lists, forums, blogs and posts with a solution for
>>> your issue
>>
>> Yes, you get that for Linux, not with windoze.
>
> You must be using a different web search than me X-)
We probably use different search terms; that can make a big difference.
>>> as well as many official resources
>>> you can query (Microsoft's KB).
>>
>> Lol, have you looked at the crap they have on their website? It's
>> totally useless, keeping users stupid. Maybe that changed, it's been a
>> long time since I looked.
>
> You have to be kidding: one of the most valued Microsoft features is
> their documentation, it's priceless (and not juts their online KB but
> Windows embedded help).
If you call that documentation ... It doesn't tell you anything. You
can't be serious.
> You won't find something like that for linux
> where most of the docs at the web are too outdated (or too new) and
> highly fragmented/unorganized. In frief: it's a complete mess :-)
The documentation is great. And don't you have manual pages installed?
>>>>> The average joe user has developed some skills on Windows.
>>>>
>>>> Some have found out how to live with the problems, yes. I don't call
>>>> workarounds or living with the problems a solution to the problems.
>>>
>>> Some have solved their problems.
>>
>> I've never seen anyone who did.
>
> Again, you have to be kidding. JFYI, I have solved all of my problems
> with Windows by myself :-)
How many times did you re-install?
>>> Others have found workarounds and there will be people that simply
>>> could not find a solution and had to go to any of the thousand tech
>>> support assistance points for an expert to deal with their issues.
>>> Should you have a linux system installed, you won't find many tech.
>>> supportes in the real world.
>>
>> I never needed that with Linux and the so-called windoze experts can't
>> fix windoze problems. I'm not surprised since there isn't any
>> documentation and the source code isn't available, either.
>
> Sorry, but I can't believe that. It does not math with my experience.
Well, where is the documentation then? Where are the people who can
solve problems?
Start with something simple, maybe:
0.) install on software RAID
1.) Replace the window manager with something usable. My requirement is
virtual desktops I can switch to without pressing a button or
clicking somewhere with the mouse, FocusFollowsMouse and the ability
to define key bindings.
2.) Keep all data on a separate partition so that I can delete the
system partition and re-install without losing my data and without
having to re-do the settings for the software I'm using.
3.) Mount the equivalent of /usr and /opt read-only.
4.) Remove internet explorer.
5.) support for software RAID created with mdtools, support for ext2,
ext3, ext4 and btrfs, at least read-only --- I need that to be able
to read my data.
6.) clean up the mess and follow the FSSTD or an appropriate equivalent
so that the system becomes easier to maintain
7.) package management
8.) an equivalent of shorewall, I need some protection and I do need
traffic shaping
9.) an equivalent to exim4, ssh login and sftp
10.) a fully featured webserver
11.) squid
12.) a C compiler --- cygwin isn't really great
13.) I need something to execute bash scripts, emacs, LaTeX and
something like screen or tmux
14.) I'm not going back to gather all kinds of different software from
all kinds of different places. I've had that with OS/2 and it was
awful. See 7.)
That's only some basics to get started. The real problems would come
soon when you start to use it. I haven't even mentioned stability and
not wanting to reboot all the time ...
>>>> The clueless people who think they aren't clueless are far worse.
>>>
>>> But you can't blame these because they are completely unware about
>>> their status.
>>
>> That's their fault and not mine, sure I can blame them. You can't just
>> claim "oh I didn't know" and thus get away with everything.
>
> Not knowing something is not a fault but a current status that can be
> changed.
>
>>>> Windoze (and Mac) users pay a lot of money for their software (and way
>>>> too much for their hardware). They can expect that they don't need to
>>>> solve problems.
>>>
>>> That's absurd. I pay for a Windows license and I expect many problems.
>>
>> Not at all.
>
> (...)
>
> Then you live outside this world or you're too ingenuous. Have you
> recently read the Windows license? It basically say (among many other
> things) that they are not responsible for any bug in the software >:-)
No, I haven't read it recently. There are legal requirements they can't
get around, no matter what they put into their agreements. And I
haven't signed their agreements, so what.
>>> Again, real problems (regardless the OS) can be only solved by people
>>> who knows how to solve them or are interested in solving them (→
>>> attitude).
>>
>> It doesn't matter what attitude you have or what you believe. You can
>> believe that the sun won't rise tomorrow or that it will rain. The sun
>> will rise or not and it will rain or not regardless.
>
> So here you have the answer to your previous question: attitude cannot be
> compared to a believe ;-)
Sure you can compare them. They aren't the same, yet the sun will rise
or not or it will rain or not regardless of your attitude. Believe and
attitude are very much alike in that.
>> Besides, there are problems you cannot solve even when you know how to
>> do it. And being interested in solving one doesn't mean that you can
>> solve it.
>
> 99,9% of the computer problems can be solved without much pain. In thi
> end, this is just something involving electronics, physics and
> mathematics.
That depends on what you consider "much pain".
--
Debian testing amd64
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