Re: Installation
Le Lun 10 septembre 2012 21:06, lee a écrit :
> David Cho-Lerat <david.lerat@asterion.fr> writes:
>
>
>>> For more than a decade now you need a working computer to install an
>>> operating system on another one so that you can acquire information
>>> and additional software as needed. Why isn't that included in the
>>> installer? Just boot from the installation media and be presented with
>>> a working system and an installer, allowing you to switch between
>>> them.
>>>
>>>
>> that's called "Debian Live" : http://live.debian.net/
>
> When it already exists, why isn't that part of the installer?
>
>
> It's a typical page, btw:
>
>
> 1.) How do you find this website? Is it referred to anywhere from [1]?
>
>
> 2.) How the hell are you supposed to know what to download?
>
>
> 3.) How do you download and put it on a storage media I can boot from
> without a working computer? (Most ppl will probably just copy what they
> downloaded to their USB stick or maybe burn the file on a CD and then find
> out they can't boot from it.)
>
>
> And look at [1]:
>
>
> It's difficult to figure out what to download. It's very difficult to
> find the installer if you want to install testing.
>
> And then you have downloaded it and start installing on your laptop and
> it won't work because your wireless card (or something else) doesn't work.
> It probably doesn't work with the live image, either.
>
>
> Do you seriously expect ppl to figure out how to install Debian? The
> documentation they have on their websites isn't very good, that's why I say
> "typical page" above.
>
>
> And where's the 40GB (or whatever size it is) Blueray image that has all
> the packages plus all the stuff from non-free plus a life system plus lots
> of documentation on it so that I can simply download that and boot and
> press a button and it just installs and works, without requiring internet
> access in the first place? --- The on-board ethernet card of my desktop
> doesn't work out of the box, so how the hell am I supposed to know what to
> do without a working computer that enables me to look for a solution?
>
> And where do I go for the downloading and burning? It isn't something
> that I could get in an arbitrary computer store somewhere in town.
>
> Can I even burn a blueray disk with what's in Debian?
>
>
>
> Now try to explain to an arbitrary person who probably has never
> installed any OS and who asks questions like "What is an operating system?"
> and "What is a hard disk?" how to install Debian. I guess the amount of
> education required is way beyond the scope of an installer.
>
> Then there's the installer itself. It can't even do simple things, like
> make a software RAID-1 from two whole disks, let me partition the raid and
> install on it. It goes through all the installation, taking my time, and
> when it's finally almost done, it tells me it cannot install grub.
> Partitioning the disks first and making the RAID from the
> partitions doesn't work, either. It's a total failure --- sorry, but that
> sucks. (Why hasn't that been fixed in the last 3 years? Instead, there's a
> graphical installer which nobody needs and which I wanted to try because
> it might work. It freezes the computer when booting, works really great,
> yeah ...) So it took a whole day to get at least almost everything onto
> the raid, and I'm not happy with it because not everything is on the raid.
> Now explain the arbitrary person why they
> can't install Debian on a software RAID-1 and why getting close to it takes
> a whole day: "Oh it takes a whole day to install and still isn't right?
> What kind of crappy software is that? Why don't you use windoze
> or a Mac?"
>
> I'm curious, can you put windoze or macos on a software RAID?
>
>
>
> [1]: http://www.debian.org/distrib/
>
>
> --
> Debian testing amd64
>
>
>
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>
>
About the non-presence of non-free and contrib packages, I think it is
normal.
I personally use non-free softwares (well... flash, wifi drivers and
opera, for the two firsts I do not really have choice) but I know that
Debian's way is not really to provide such tools.
Ubuntu does it.
About an automated install, did you tried the "auto" way? I think I tried
it some years ago, but I do not remember if it asks about partitions.
If yes, I guess this is an issue which could be fixed.
Also, it is not really easy to find this option... I mean, user need to go
to "advanced" or equivalent menu to find it. Which is not really
automated, right?
Well, honestly, I think the better thing for a true end-user system would
be an installer which install a debian stable distro with non-free enabled
by default, at least to install flash and drivers (which are things really
needed by users). Ubuntu sounds to break itself quite often (As far as I
heard, I never tried it long enough to say "I know") because being based
on sid...
But there is also a need to avoid creating Yet Another Debian Like Distro
in my opinion. Maybe there is already one which do that? I'm lost in the
Linux multiverse, and I know the next part I'll explore will not be one of
usable by simple-users.
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