Re: problem with SATA disk, difference between standard kernel and Debian kernel

[lee <lee@yun.yagibdah.de>]

On Sat, Jan 03, 2009 at 11:05:01PM +0000, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 03, 2009 at 04:11:35PM -0600, lee wrote:
> > On Fri, Jan 02, 2009 at 10:51:56PM +0000, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> > > On Fri, Jan 02, 2009 at 03:00:41PM -0600, lee wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Jan 01, 2009 at 05:56:25PM -0200, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:
> > > > > lee wrote:
> > > > > > Well, how do you install on SATA disks when the installer can't access
> > > > > > them? It still has the option to load more modules from a floppy disk,
> > > > > > but I haven't had a floppy disk drive for years ... With no system
> > > > > > installed, you couldn't create those disks anyway.
> > > > > >   
> 
> Specifics please: Machine name / model number / motherboard if 
> homebuilt?

Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3L

> Output from lspci

00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation 82G33/G31/P35/P31 Express DRAM Controller (rev 02)
00:01.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82G33/G31/P35/P31 Express PCI Express Root Port (rev 02)
00:1a.0 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) USB UHCI Controller #4 (rev 02)
00:1a.1 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) USB UHCI Controller #5 (rev 02)
00:1a.2 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) USB UHCI Controller #6 (rev 02)
00:1a.7 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) USB2 EHCI Controller #2 (rev 02)
00:1c.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) PCI Express Port 1 (rev 02)
00:1c.3 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) PCI Express Port 4 (rev 02)
00:1c.4 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) PCI Express Port 5 (rev 02)
00:1d.0 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) USB UHCI Controller #1 (rev 02)
00:1d.1 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) USB UHCI Controller #2 (rev 02)
00:1d.2 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) USB UHCI Controller #3 (rev 02)
00:1d.7 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) USB2 EHCI Controller #1 (rev 02)
00:1e.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801 PCI Bridge (rev 92)
00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation 82801IB (ICH9) LPC Interface Controller (rev 02)
00:1f.2 IDE interface: Intel Corporation 82801IB (ICH9) 2 port SATA IDE Controller (rev 02)
00:1f.3 SMBus: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) SMBus Controller (rev 02)
00:1f.5 IDE interface: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) 2 port SATA IDE Controller (rev 02)
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation G92 [GeForce 9800 GT] (rev a2)
03:00.0 IDE interface: JMicron Technology Corp. JMB368 IDE controller
05:00.0 PCI bridge: Digital Equipment Corporation DECchip 21152 (rev 03)
05:02.0 Multimedia audio controller: Creative Labs SB Live! EMU10k1 (rev 0a)
05:02.1 Input device controller: Creative Labs SB Live! Game Port (rev 0a)
06:04.0 Ethernet controller: Intel Corporation 82557/8/9/0/1 Ethernet Pro 100 (rev 05)
06:05.0 Ethernet controller: Intel Corporation 82557/8/9/0/1 Ethernet Pro 100 (rev 05)

> Output from lsmod

The modules needed to use SATA drives are just not available on the
installer CD.

> Which installer are you using - Etch a.k.a Debian 4.0 or Lenny (upcoming 
> Debian 5.0) ?

I was installing testing.

> Which kernel version appears to boot - 2.6.18 / 2.6.24 / 2.6.26?

I think it was 2.6.24.

> > > Go to the non-free archive for Debian packages. Look for
> > > firmware-non-free packages. I've recently had to use the bnx2
> > > drivers for Broadcom ethernet cards.
> > 
> > The modules I need to access the disks come with standard and Debian
> > kernels. They are not non-free.
> > 
> 
> If you know that they come with Debian's standard kernels and 
> that they're there, is there any obvious reason why they're not 
> included?

no

The modules should be included with the installer CD because without
them, it's not possible to install unless you have SCSI or IDE disks.

> > There are also no floppy disk images of the installer
> > for download (like there used to be), which would allow you do
> > download another disk image containing more modules. Still the
> > installer keeps prompting for a floppy disk and tells you to insert
> > the disk, just to find out that there is no floppy disk drive
> > installed.
> 
> Have you _seen_ how big kernels are lately? : floppies (even if you can 
> find working floppy disks) ceased to be viable about the time Linux 
> went to kernel version 2.6.

Not all the modules aren't that big --- and if they are too big to fit
on a floppy, they can be split over several disks. It doesn't matter
much, though, I removed the floppy from my computer a decade ago and
haven't had one since. Just mainboard manufacturers seem to live in a
different world where people still have floppies to update the BIOS ...

> > Why doesn't the page tell you, like it did when floppy images were
> > available, that you might need more modules and offers you to download
> > another CD image? Why aren't those modules just on the installer CD?
> 
> I think the release notes mention things like this: the modules  
> probably are on an installer CD: do you know which modules they 
> might be?

The ones I need? Yes.

> > It's not that the CD image would get too big to fit on a CD or to
> > download --- and if it was, there could always be the minimal
> > installer image for computers older than 4 or 5 years and another one
> > with all that's missing on the minimal image.
> > 
> > The installer could also give you instructions about how to get more
> > modules or just download the missing modules automatically during the
> > installation, just like it does with other things.
> 
> The instructions below are for those things that are explicitly 
> non-free. It's also based on the Lenny installer (which does tell you 
> if non-free firmware is required).

The installer only told me that the disks aren't there.

> > 
> > > Download the .deb on another machine. [Assuming you're using Linux 
> > > here].
> > 
> > What do you do when you don't have one? Buy a windoze CD and another
> > hard disk, install windoze on that disk, get the needed files, install
> > Debian, sell the windoze CD and disk?
> > 
> 
> If you don't have another machine: borrow a friend who has a USB stick / 
> SD card and access to a Linux machine. Your email address suggests that 
> you may be in .de  - which has towns with Linux user groups / internet 
> cafe's.

Well, I'm not in Germany, and I don't know anyone else who's using
Linux and has an USB stick or an SD card.

> > And before you can do that, how do you know where to get the missing
> > kernel modules for the installer, and how do you know which ones are
> > missing? I'd like to know that for the next time I'll try to install.
> > 
> 
> Boot with a live CD?

Well, I have an SATA DVD drive/burner. How do you create a live CD
just using the installer CD and the SATA burner? SATA devices cannot
be accessed ...

> > > Carry the USB stick across to the machine you need it on. Boot the Lenny 
> > > installer - at some point the dialog will tell you that you need 
> > > non-free modules and will ask you for a floppy/USB stick to load 
> > > the modules from.
> > 
> > No, it didn't tell me that it needs modules. It only told me that no
> > disks had been detected. If I hadn't known that a module is missing
> > and that it does work once the right module is available, I could have
> > concluded that Linux is just too old to run on even "old" (like two or
> > three years) hardware ...
> > 
> 
> Kernel version you are trying to install?

Whatever the installer would install if it could access the disks ---
afair 2.6.24.

> > > Insert the stick when prompted.
> > 
> > The installer offers to read modules from a floppy disk, not from an
> > USB device.
> > 
> > > > These modules need to be available to the installer out of the
> > > > box. It's not like I'd be using some unusual hardware ...
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > What is not unusual to you is unusual to other people :)
> > 
> > What is unusual about SATA disks and controllers?
> > 
> > Go to your favourite computer store --- now or a year (or even longer)
> > ago --- and try to buy a computer or a mainboard that doesn't have
> > SATA disks or an SATA controller. You'd have a very hard time to find
> > one.
> > 
> 
> I can probably find _at least_ one. 

Which one?

> > Also keep in mind that this was the amd64 installer. Which system that
> > can run 64bit software doesn't have an SATA controller?
> >
> 
> Two out of the three of the AMD64 systems under my desks here (all using 
> old motherboards :) ).

So I'm right that people trying to install might have to conclude that
Linux is too old for hardware less than three years old and that they
need old hardware for it ...

> > > The reason that the modules are in non-free is precisely because
> > > they have licence conditions or similar which prevent us putting
> > > them in the Debian archive proper.
> > 
> > The "AHCI SATA support" in the standard and Debian kernels creates
> > something that is non-free?
> > 
> 
> Check BIOS settings carefully: if the BIOS will allow you, try setting 
> the Legacy compatible options if available - the drives may then appear to 
> be PATA.

That's what I had set --- at that time, I didn't even know that there
are different settings for SATA (AHCI vs not-AHCI), and not-AHCI is
the default the BIOS is using. Either way you're screwed because the
kernel still needs modules to access the SATA disks that aren't
available on the installer CD.